4 ms·

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge iss

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from entering the wrong bathroom. Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. Imagine telling a child who has a hetero crush on a classmate that they're too young to know they're straight. Children are little people. It won't be the correct choice for every child, but for every child it is the correct choice for, it will lead to a happier life and a more effective transition. last but not least, you didn't care about competitive women's swimming before, you're not fooling me that you care about it now.

cubefox 2mo ago
> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. The article quotes a campaigner against the trial who first transitioned and then detransitioned (as far as this was still possible I assume, since a lot is irreversible). So kids can absolutely make the wrong decision. The question is what the relative frequency of these mistakes is.
- summermusic 2mo ago
  "In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
  - ipaddr 2mo ago
    Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted. Most change their mind.
    - a_shovel 2mo ago
      The "desistance" measured in that study is between going to the clinic as a child (before any treatment would be offered) and the time they would go to receive medical treatment from the clinic. Most sources I've seen suggest that change in gender identity is more common in younger children and drops off around the time puberty would start, which is the earliest that medical treatments are offered. The meaning of "desistance" being discussed here is regret after receiving medical treatment - basicly, the Type I error (false positive) rate of the treatment decision. These aren't really comparable.
    - UncleMeat 2mo ago
      > desisted or were no longer traceable So this includes both detransitioners and people who just changed their phone number. Not exactly something where we can assume that all of these people were unhappy with their transition.
- MSFT_Edging 2mo ago
  With how few trans people are, the people among them who have detransitioned is even smaller. I'm not sure why these people should be the only ones that are taken seriously. They're nearly as big of grifters as the "tied-in-fifth-place" swimmer who decided the grift train would pay better than being a mid swimmer. The thing about Puberty blockers, is they can be mostly reversed. This isn't about children getting things cut off, it's about preventing certain features that surgery cant fix from developing. IMO it's cruel for a teenager who is absolutely sure, to be forced to go through the incorrect puberty and have to undo that later.
AlexandrB 2mo ago
> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. They can also absolutely be unduly influenced by their parents or other authority figures. The fact that Megan Fox has 3 trans kids points to upbringing as being a major factor.
tosti 2mo ago
You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?
- HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
  If you are 11 and wait 7 years to get a tattoo, your tattoo will look just as good or better. If you are 11 and wait 7 years to transition, you will suffer irreversible physical and psychological damage. You will have missed formative social experiences. You will have to get expensive, painful surgeries to partially correct what was done to you.
  - tosti 2mo ago
    At least you'll have a better idea if it's psychosomatic or not.
    - pseudalopex 2mo ago
      Gender dysphoria is mental by definition.
      - alexgieg 2mo ago
        No, it's first a matter of different connectomes. Their brains are physically those of the opposite gender, as shown by several studies using advanced neuroimaging and by autopsies. The mental/psychological effects of those brains being that way are effects of those very physical differences. To fix that, we'd need microneurosurgery on the level of science fiction. Maybe in a few decades we will, but right now, reshaping the body so it gets as close as possible to what the brain expects is the only option available. And yes, that neuroimaging could be used as a clinical diagnostic criterion, entirely replacing psychological and psychiatric evaluations. The problem is it costs a fortune, so right now only scientific teams with big budgets use it, and only to publish papers. Over the next several years, with any luck, neuroimaging diagnosis may fall enough in price that it may become the norm, at least in first-world countries.
rootusrootus 2mo ago
> culture war issue I'm 100% with Sarah McBride on this. The blame for this culture war is arguably as much because of how pro-trans folks handled it as it is resistance from conservatives. It did not need to happen this way. There will be progress in the future but it definitely got set back a ways over the last few years. Unfortunately with collateral damage for the rest of the LGBT community.
- UncleMeat 2mo ago
  The culture war started in the US when North Carolina passed a bathroom bill. Prior to this we'd had trans people participating in sports, using the bathroom of their choice, and being allowed to medically transition for years and years. The idea that trans people somehow brought this on themselves for being too pushy is simply false.

cubefox 2mo ago

> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. The article quotes a campaigner against the trial who first transitioned and then detransitioned (as far as this was still possible I assume, since a lot is irreversible). So kids can absolutely make the wrong decision. The question is what the relative frequency of these mistakes is.

summermusic 2mo ago
"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
- ipaddr 2mo ago
  Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted. Most change their mind.
  - a_shovel 2mo ago
    The "desistance" measured in that study is between going to the clinic as a child (before any treatment would be offered) and the time they would go to receive medical treatment from the clinic. Most sources I've seen suggest that change in gender identity is more common in younger children and drops off around the time puberty would start, which is the earliest that medical treatments are offered. The meaning of "desistance" being discussed here is regret after receiving medical treatment - basicly, the Type I error (false positive) rate of the treatment decision. These aren't really comparable.
  - UncleMeat 2mo ago
    > desisted or were no longer traceable So this includes both detransitioners and people who just changed their phone number. Not exactly something where we can assume that all of these people were unhappy with their transition.
MSFT_Edging 2mo ago
With how few trans people are, the people among them who have detransitioned is even smaller. I'm not sure why these people should be the only ones that are taken seriously. They're nearly as big of grifters as the "tied-in-fifth-place" swimmer who decided the grift train would pay better than being a mid swimmer. The thing about Puberty blockers, is they can be mostly reversed. This isn't about children getting things cut off, it's about preventing certain features that surgery cant fix from developing. IMO it's cruel for a teenager who is absolutely sure, to be forced to go through the incorrect puberty and have to undo that later.

AlexandrB 2mo ago

> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. They can also absolutely be unduly influenced by their parents or other authority figures. The fact that Megan Fox has 3 trans kids points to upbringing as being a major factor.

tosti 2mo ago

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
If you are 11 and wait 7 years to get a tattoo, your tattoo will look just as good or better. If you are 11 and wait 7 years to transition, you will suffer irreversible physical and psychological damage. You will have missed formative social experiences. You will have to get expensive, painful surgeries to partially correct what was done to you.
- tosti 2mo ago
  At least you'll have a better idea if it's psychosomatic or not.
  - pseudalopex 2mo ago
    Gender dysphoria is mental by definition.
    - alexgieg 2mo ago
      No, it's first a matter of different connectomes. Their brains are physically those of the opposite gender, as shown by several studies using advanced neuroimaging and by autopsies. The mental/psychological effects of those brains being that way are effects of those very physical differences. To fix that, we'd need microneurosurgery on the level of science fiction. Maybe in a few decades we will, but right now, reshaping the body so it gets as close as possible to what the brain expects is the only option available. And yes, that neuroimaging could be used as a clinical diagnostic criterion, entirely replacing psychological and psychiatric evaluations. The problem is it costs a fortune, so right now only scientific teams with big budgets use it, and only to publish papers. Over the next several years, with any luck, neuroimaging diagnosis may fall enough in price that it may become the norm, at least in first-world countries.

rootusrootus 2mo ago

> culture war issue I'm 100% with Sarah McBride on this. The blame for this culture war is arguably as much because of how pro-trans folks handled it as it is resistance from conservatives. It did not need to happen this way. There will be progress in the future but it definitely got set back a ways over the last few years. Unfortunately with collateral damage for the rest of the LGBT community.

UncleMeat 2mo ago
The culture war started in the US when North Carolina passed a bathroom bill. Prior to this we'd had trans people participating in sports, using the bathroom of their choice, and being allowed to medically transition for years and years. The idea that trans people somehow brought this on themselves for being too pushy is simply false.