8 ms·

Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

16 points by ksec 3mo ago

indy 3mo ago
[flagged]
- vextea 3mo ago
  Besides the bait, if the claim is that the evidence for treatment is weak (or well, "evil") a study with appropriate safeguards seems like it should be welcomed not eschewed.
  - cubefox 3mo ago
    Weak doesn't mean "evil" here. If the effect is strong, but a lot of kids end up regretting it later, then this would be bad.
    - vextea 3mo ago
      In this case regretting it generally means stopping taking blockers and letting puberty progress as it would without the intervention. Puberty blockers give time to assess if further intervention is needed later (such as hormone replacement therapy)
      - cubefox 3mo ago
        That's not true. There was recently a woman who ended up with a masculinized body with apparently no room to revert the change.
        foco_tubi 3mo ago
        There was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn't know what to do. See, you can say literally anything without citing a source.
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Interesting that you didn't say this to the previous commenter who also didn't provide a source for their claim. Anyway, here is what I was referring to: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/x1j5t9/i_cant_live_like_this_anymore_but_i_dont_want_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/x1j5t9/i_cant_live...
        foco_tubi 3mo ago
        Interesting that you apparently can’t distinguish between puberty blockers and HRT. When women use puberty blockers, it does not make them develop male traits. What’s even more interesting is that you value Reddit as a citable source. What other valuable resources have you used to inform your opinion?
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Interesting that you apparently can't distinguish between children and women. If you think the Reddit report is fake, say so explicitly.
        foco_tubi 3mo ago
        Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits? Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source? Oof.
        cubefox 3mo ago
        > Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits? They will fail to develop their respective sex-typical traits, which in turn is typical of the opposite sex. > Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source? Is there any reason to think the Reddit report is fake? If not, it is fine for me to refer to it. Besides, you were the one asking for a reference. Do you think she should have posted this to the arxiv? You are moving the goal posts.
    - MSFT_Edging 3mo ago
      ~1% regret rate. https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
      - AlexandrB 3mo ago
        Counterpoint: https://segm.org/regret-detransition-rate-unknown https://segm.org/regret-detransition-rate-unknown > And since gender transition is a lifelong process required to maintain a masculinized or feminized appearance, instances of medical detransition—reported by one study as reaching 30% within just 4 years of initiating treatment—is an alarming warning signal of high numbers of inappropriate transitions.
        summermusic 3mo ago
        Your source is fake. "The Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is an anti-trans organization that is known for its opposition to gender-affirming care for transgender youth and for engaging in political lobbying. SEGM is known for transgender health care misinformation. It has falsely claimed that the majority of transgender children desist, argued that gender exploratory therapy should be the first line treatment for those under 25, and promoted the scientifically unsupported theory of rapid-onset gender dysphoria. SEGM is often cited in anti-transgender legislation and court cases, sometimes filing court briefs." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gen...
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Wikipedia is also known to be heavily biased on these matters.
      - ipaddr 3mo ago
        Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted
MSFT_Edging 3mo ago
This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from entering the wrong bathroom. Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. Imagine telling a child who has a hetero crush on a classmate that they're too young to know they're straight. Children are little people. It won't be the correct choice for every child, but for every child it is the correct choice for, it will lead to a happier life and a more effective transition. last but not least, you didn't care about competitive women's swimming before, you're not fooling me that you care about it now.
- cubefox 3mo ago
  > Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. The article quotes a campaigner against the trial who first transitioned and then detransitioned (as far as this was still possible I assume, since a lot is irreversible). So kids can absolutely make the wrong decision. The question is what the relative frequency of these mistakes is.
  - summermusic 3mo ago
    "In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
    - ipaddr 3mo ago
      Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted. Most change their mind.
konsalexee 3mo ago
> Campaigners who brought the legal action had argued the safeguards in place were inadequate and raised concerns about the long-term physical and psychological effects on young people. What exactly are the safeguards for real? It’s literally irreversible damage when you mess up with hormones while on puberty. I am conflicted myself, but I think I err on the side of caution and think that avoiding messing with your hormones should be no brainer.
- summermusic 3mo ago
  > Irreversible damage Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible
  - konsalexee 3mo ago
    > Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible Any credible studies to back this up? I find the contrary when I looked last time around, and it does not feel reversible when you disrupt the most important phase of your development (body wise). But maybe I miss context here so happy to learn
    - imperatorstorm 3mo ago
      https://www.saxinstitute.org.au/resource/evidence-for-effective-interventions-for-children-and-young-people-with-gender-dysphoria-update https://www.saxinstitute.org.au/resource/evidence-for-effect... Rew, L., Young, C.C., Monge, M. and Bogucka, R. (2021), Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature. Child Adolesc Ment Health, 26: 3-14. https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437 https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437 Jamie L Finegan, Maja Marinkovic, Kyle Okamuro, Ron S Newfield, Jennifer T Anger, Experience with gender affirming hormones and puberty blockers (gonadotropin releasing hormone agonist): a qualitative analysis of sexual function, The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Volume 22, Issue 5, May 2025, Pages 945–950, https://doi.org/10.1093/jsxmed/qdaf061 https://doi.org/10.1093/jsxmed/qdaf061
- HedonicEscal8r 3mo ago
RC_ITR 3mo ago
>The number of members with GH claims per 10,000 beneficiaries under age 18 rose steadily from 5.1 in 2001 to 14.6 in 2016, without a dramatic change around 2003, the ISS approval date. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6795021/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6795021/ Just as a reminder for everyone here, 0.14% of US children (+3x in a decade) are given Human Growth Hormone because they are short. Our government says that being in the bottom 2 percentiles is a medically valid condition to be treated with hormones. Differentially focusing your emotional response on sex-expression hormone therapy vs. hormone therapy generally is reflective of bias.
sail2boat3 3mo ago
As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussions of people who decide to detransition. Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age.
- VCFundedGenYer 3mo ago
  Not really understanding you. Are you softly still saying, as someone who isn't them, that you want to gatekeep this from people who don't feel comfortable in their own bodies?
  - AlexandrB 3mo ago
    We do it all the time with people who believe they should be amputees. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrity-identity-disorder-biid https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrit...
    - summermusic 3mo ago
      > We do it all the time No, we don't. Your linked source literally says that surgeons and providers won't perform these amputations.
      - AlexandrB 3mo ago
        I mean we gatekeep major body alterations.
        fallal 3mo ago
        And also no child is getting their arms chopped off because they say they don't want arms.
a_shovel 3mo ago
The pattern I've observed repeated around issues of transgender health care is "ordinary levels of scientific uncertainty used to argue for the most extreme possible restrictions." Puberty blockers have long been used to treat precocious puberty, the main problems of which are social difficulty from going through puberty earlier than one's peers and a shorter adult height. The opponents of transgender healthcare have used the minor uncertainty of prescribing this medication to a group a few years older to argue not for tighter safeguards, but for a legal ban on prescribing it for that purpose. Not letting doctors evaluate the potential risks and benefits for their patients is one thing, but not even wanting a medical trial to begin to gather more data is outrageous. There is absolutely no concern from these same groups about any risk of the medication to cisgender children, which casts doubt that the concerns are raised in good faith.
- rootusrootus 3mo ago
  > Puberty blockers have long been used to treat precocious puberty That seems orthogonal, yes? Delaying puberty until the body gets into the usual range of growth is arguably improving something that was otherwise going off the rails. Delaying puberty from normal onset until after the body has otherwise stopped growing is a different use case, different intended goal. It does not seem unreasonable to have different expectations.
  - a_shovel 3mo ago
    Puberty blockers for transgender and potentially transgender teens aren't meant to be taken all the way through to adulthood, if that's what you mean by "otherwise stopped growing." Ideally they're taken just long enough for them to get counseling and come to a decision, a couple years at max. Apart from that, "different use case, different intended goal" is cause for what I'd call "ordinary levels of scientific uncertainty." A 13-year-old just starting puberty is not so different from an 8-year-old just starting puberty to justify denying a medication to one by law while still prescribing it to the other without concern.
DrProtic 3mo ago
Should children have the right to commit assisted suicide?
- pseudalopex 3mo ago
  Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature. Puberty blockers are reversible generally. Suicide is not. Many people believe adults should be denied assisted suicide. Your point was what?
  - DrProtic 3mo ago
    > Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature. No they don’t, you’re lying through your teeth. > Puberty blockers are reversible generally No they aren’t, stop lying.
- Shekelphile 2mo ago
  Yes.
pseudalopex 3mo ago
> A high-profile clinical trial of drugs that can delay puberty in children questioning their gender can go ahead after the High Court rejected a legal challenge by campaigners. The trial protocol said diagnosed with gender incongruence. And explained this.[1] Not questioning their gender. [1] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-t...
- fallal 3mo ago
  The root cause problem is that this is based on sexist beliefs about how women and men should present themselves and behave. Children, and adults, are being iatrogenically harmed, and irreversibly so, because of this.
fallal 3mo ago
Horrifying news. This is sterilisation of children for brazenly ideological reasons.

16 points by ksec 3mo ago

indy 3mo ago

[flagged]

vextea 3mo ago
Besides the bait, if the claim is that the evidence for treatment is weak (or well, "evil") a study with appropriate safeguards seems like it should be welcomed not eschewed.
- cubefox 3mo ago
  Weak doesn't mean "evil" here. If the effect is strong, but a lot of kids end up regretting it later, then this would be bad.
  - vextea 3mo ago
    In this case regretting it generally means stopping taking blockers and letting puberty progress as it would without the intervention. Puberty blockers give time to assess if further intervention is needed later (such as hormone replacement therapy)
    - cubefox 3mo ago
      That's not true. There was recently a woman who ended up with a masculinized body with apparently no room to revert the change.
      - foco_tubi 3mo ago
        There was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn't know what to do. See, you can say literally anything without citing a source.
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Interesting that you didn't say this to the previous commenter who also didn't provide a source for their claim. Anyway, here is what I was referring to: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/x1j5t9/i_cant_live_like_this_anymore_but_i_dont_want_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/x1j5t9/i_cant_live...
        foco_tubi 3mo ago
        Interesting that you apparently can’t distinguish between puberty blockers and HRT. When women use puberty blockers, it does not make them develop male traits. What’s even more interesting is that you value Reddit as a citable source. What other valuable resources have you used to inform your opinion?
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Interesting that you apparently can't distinguish between children and women. If you think the Reddit report is fake, say so explicitly.
        foco_tubi 3mo ago
        Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits? Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source? Oof.
        cubefox 3mo ago
        > Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits? They will fail to develop their respective sex-typical traits, which in turn is typical of the opposite sex. > Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source? Is there any reason to think the Reddit report is fake? If not, it is fine for me to refer to it. Besides, you were the one asking for a reference. Do you think she should have posted this to the arxiv? You are moving the goal posts.
  - MSFT_Edging 3mo ago
    ~1% regret rate. https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
    - AlexandrB 3mo ago
      Counterpoint: https://segm.org/regret-detransition-rate-unknown https://segm.org/regret-detransition-rate-unknown > And since gender transition is a lifelong process required to maintain a masculinized or feminized appearance, instances of medical detransition—reported by one study as reaching 30% within just 4 years of initiating treatment—is an alarming warning signal of high numbers of inappropriate transitions.
      - summermusic 3mo ago
        Your source is fake. "The Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is an anti-trans organization that is known for its opposition to gender-affirming care for transgender youth and for engaging in political lobbying. SEGM is known for transgender health care misinformation. It has falsely claimed that the majority of transgender children desist, argued that gender exploratory therapy should be the first line treatment for those under 25, and promoted the scientifically unsupported theory of rapid-onset gender dysphoria. SEGM is often cited in anti-transgender legislation and court cases, sometimes filing court briefs." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gen...
        cubefox 3mo ago
        Wikipedia is also known to be heavily biased on these matters.
    - ipaddr 3mo ago
      Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted

MSFT_Edging 3mo ago

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from entering the wrong bathroom. Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. Imagine telling a child who has a hetero crush on a classmate that they're too young to know they're straight. Children are little people. It won't be the correct choice for every child, but for every child it is the correct choice for, it will lead to a happier life and a more effective transition. last but not least, you didn't care about competitive women's swimming before, you're not fooling me that you care about it now.

cubefox 3mo ago
> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. The article quotes a campaigner against the trial who first transitioned and then detransitioned (as far as this was still possible I assume, since a lot is irreversible). So kids can absolutely make the wrong decision. The question is what the relative frequency of these mistakes is.
- summermusic 3mo ago
  "In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...
  - ipaddr 3mo ago
    Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted. Most change their mind.

konsalexee 3mo ago

> Campaigners who brought the legal action had argued the safeguards in place were inadequate and raised concerns about the long-term physical and psychological effects on young people. What exactly are the safeguards for real? It’s literally irreversible damage when you mess up with hormones while on puberty. I am conflicted myself, but I think I err on the side of caution and think that avoiding messing with your hormones should be no brainer.

summermusic 3mo ago
> Irreversible damage Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible
- konsalexee 3mo ago
  > Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible Any credible studies to back this up? I find the contrary when I looked last time around, and it does not feel reversible when you disrupt the most important phase of your development (body wise). But maybe I miss context here so happy to learn
  - imperatorstorm 3mo ago
    https://www.saxinstitute.org.au/resource/evidence-for-effective-interventions-for-children-and-young-people-with-gender-dysphoria-update https://www.saxinstitute.org.au/resource/evidence-for-effect... Rew, L., Young, C.C., Monge, M. and Bogucka, R. (2021), Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature. Child Adolesc Ment Health, 26: 3-14. https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437 https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437 Jamie L Finegan, Maja Marinkovic, Kyle Okamuro, Ron S Newfield, Jennifer T Anger, Experience with gender affirming hormones and puberty blockers (gonadotropin releasing hormone agonist): a qualitative analysis of sexual function, The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Volume 22, Issue 5, May 2025, Pages 945–950, https://doi.org/10.1093/jsxmed/qdaf061 https://doi.org/10.1093/jsxmed/qdaf061
HedonicEscal8r 3mo ago

RC_ITR 3mo ago

>The number of members with GH claims per 10,000 beneficiaries under age 18 rose steadily from 5.1 in 2001 to 14.6 in 2016, without a dramatic change around 2003, the ISS approval date. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6795021/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6795021/ Just as a reminder for everyone here, 0.14% of US children (+3x in a decade) are given Human Growth Hormone because they are short. Our government says that being in the bottom 2 percentiles is a medically valid condition to be treated with hormones. Differentially focusing your emotional response on sex-expression hormone therapy vs. hormone therapy generally is reflective of bias.

sail2boat3 3mo ago

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussions of people who decide to detransition. Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age.

VCFundedGenYer 3mo ago
Not really understanding you. Are you softly still saying, as someone who isn't them, that you want to gatekeep this from people who don't feel comfortable in their own bodies?
- AlexandrB 3mo ago
  We do it all the time with people who believe they should be amputees. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrity-identity-disorder-biid https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrit...
  - summermusic 3mo ago
    > We do it all the time No, we don't. Your linked source literally says that surgeons and providers won't perform these amputations.
    - AlexandrB 3mo ago
      I mean we gatekeep major body alterations.
      - fallal 3mo ago
        And also no child is getting their arms chopped off because they say they don't want arms.

a_shovel 3mo ago

The pattern I've observed repeated around issues of transgender health care is "ordinary levels of scientific uncertainty used to argue for the most extreme possible restrictions." Puberty blockers have long been used to treat precocious puberty, the main problems of which are social difficulty from going through puberty earlier than one's peers and a shorter adult height. The opponents of transgender healthcare have used the minor uncertainty of prescribing this medication to a group a few years older to argue not for tighter safeguards, but for a legal ban on prescribing it for that purpose. Not letting doctors evaluate the potential risks and benefits for their patients is one thing, but not even wanting a medical trial to begin to gather more data is outrageous. There is absolutely no concern from these same groups about any risk of the medication to cisgender children, which casts doubt that the concerns are raised in good faith.

rootusrootus 3mo ago
> Puberty blockers have long been used to treat precocious puberty That seems orthogonal, yes? Delaying puberty until the body gets into the usual range of growth is arguably improving something that was otherwise going off the rails. Delaying puberty from normal onset until after the body has otherwise stopped growing is a different use case, different intended goal. It does not seem unreasonable to have different expectations.
- a_shovel 3mo ago
  Puberty blockers for transgender and potentially transgender teens aren't meant to be taken all the way through to adulthood, if that's what you mean by "otherwise stopped growing." Ideally they're taken just long enough for them to get counseling and come to a decision, a couple years at max. Apart from that, "different use case, different intended goal" is cause for what I'd call "ordinary levels of scientific uncertainty." A 13-year-old just starting puberty is not so different from an 8-year-old just starting puberty to justify denying a medication to one by law while still prescribing it to the other without concern.

DrProtic 3mo ago

Should children have the right to commit assisted suicide?

pseudalopex 3mo ago
Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature. Puberty blockers are reversible generally. Suicide is not. Many people believe adults should be denied assisted suicide. Your point was what?
- DrProtic 3mo ago
  > Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature. No they don’t, you’re lying through your teeth. > Puberty blockers are reversible generally No they aren’t, stop lying.
Shekelphile 2mo ago
Yes.

pseudalopex 3mo ago

> A high-profile clinical trial of drugs that can delay puberty in children questioning their gender can go ahead after the High Court rejected a legal challenge by campaigners. The trial protocol said diagnosed with gender incongruence. And explained this.[1] Not questioning their gender. [1] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-t...

fallal 3mo ago
The root cause problem is that this is based on sexist beliefs about how women and men should present themselves and behave. Children, and adults, are being iatrogenically harmed, and irreversibly so, because of this.

fallal 3mo ago

Horrifying news. This is sterilisation of children for brazenly ideological reasons.