4 ms·

You're asking the US to do what is un-American. American culture is deeply individualistic. From a cultural perspective, a person who fails in their recovery f

You're asking the US to do what is un-American. American culture is deeply individualistic. From a cultural perspective, a person who fails in their recovery from addiction is seen, ultimately, as being responsible for their failure. They'd typically be criticized for being weak and undisciplined, even if the fake kindness of American culture prevents most people from saying that out loud.

bluGill 3mo ago
The 18th amendment disagrees. While there is a large "your own fault" for things like this, there is also a large "you shouldn't be allowed to do some stupid things".
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- ElProlactin 3mo ago
  Citing the 18th Amendment, which not only failed to stop the sale of alcoholic beverages but led to the creation of a massive black market, as a rebuttal to the fact that America is a highly individualistic culture in which people are largely considered responsible for their inability to regulate their own behavior, is very strange.
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    The 18th amendment proves that were are not that individualistic. If we were we never would have passed it. The 18th amendment didn't stop the sale of alcohol, but it greatly reduced those sales. It did lead to a black market, but it overall did succeed in the aims of the supporters even if it wasn't perfect. Of course the supporters were not as numerous as they thought they were and so it was rolled back.
    - ElProlactin 3mo ago
      > The 18th amendment proves that were are not that individualistic. And did the 13th Amendment prove that there was no racism in America? Does the 2nd Amendment prove that all Americans love guns? The US is one of the most individualistic societies in the world. There is a significant amount of qualitative and quantitative research about this. Hofstede's cultural dimensions is probably the most popular "scoring" of this, but it's hardly the only reference. There's a reason the idea of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" originated in the US. If you've spent any time living abroad, especially in more collectivist societies (like those in Asia), you'd know how farcical it is to hold up the 18th Amendment as proof the US is not individualistic.
      - bluGill 3mo ago
        Most individualist yes. However it isn't perfect 100%
        ElProlactin 3mo ago
        So then you're arguing that "the US isn't that individualistic, as compared to a society that doesn't exist."
        bluGill 3mo ago
        The original argument was the USA is that society that we have now agreed doesn't exist.
        ElProlactin 3mo ago
        Nothing in your comments refutes what I wrote: > American culture is deeply individualistic. From a cultural perspective, a person who fails in their recovery from addiction is seen, ultimately, as being responsible for their failure. They'd typically be criticized for being weak and undisciplined, even if the fake kindness of American culture prevents most people from saying that out loud. If you want a stunning, quantitative example, here you go: https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/news/guiding-principles-addressing-stigma-opioid-addiction https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/news/guiding-principles-addre... > Many Americans view poor individual choices/lack of discipline as the cause of opioid addiction: > 78% of Americans believe people who are addicted to prescription opioids are, themselves, to blame for the problem. > 72% believe that people addicted to prescription opioids lack self-discipline. This is despite the fact that the opioid epidemic was driven by pharma companies employing aggressive marketing and false safety claims to get doctors to overprescribe painkillers. https://alcoholstudies.rutgers.edu/the-four-sentence-letter-behind-the-rise-of-oxycontin/ https://alcoholstudies.rutgers.edu/the-four-sentence-letter-... And yet large numbers of Americans (a significant majority according to the above) still blame opioid addiction on the individuals. You can see the same general philosophy applied to issues like poverty and homelessness. https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2025/most-us-adults-think-individual-choices-keep-people-in-poverty-a-new-ap-norc-harris-poll-finds/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2025/most-us-a...
  - brewdad 3mo ago
    The US is a highly individualist society in which groups of individuals love to tell those outside their group what they can and cannot do.
- antiterra 3mo ago
  While your assessment may be true, I don’t think the mere ratification of the amendment makes the argument. It’s much more complicated. The passing of the 18th was done through a highly organized and motivated cross-party political bloc that would throw an election to punish anyone that did not align with the dry agenda. This stacked the representative government in their favor, even if it did not match actual sentiment in their state. The repeal of the amendment however, was by vote and 73% of voters favored the repeal.
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    By your numbers 27% did not. Already that is a significant minority. There are an unknown number in your 73% that support things like the amendment, but not that particular one. Speaking as an American only a tiny number are really the hard core individualists that OP is trying to reduce is to. The majority have inclinations that way but their beliefs are much more complex and cannot be reduced that far.
    - ElProlactin 3mo ago
      > Speaking as an American only a tiny number are really the hard core individualists that OP is trying to reduce is to. I'm an American who has lived abroad for many years and married into a less individualistic/more collectivist culture. It's very easy to see how individualistic the US is comparatively speaking when you get the opportunity to step outside it.
lotsofpulp 3mo ago
It was very American to restrict gambling, especially sports gambling, to very few physical locations until 2018. The government of the state of New Jersey argued that the federal government should not be able to restrict states from allowing gambling, and the Supreme Court agreed, so now there are no limits since all the states compete with each other in a race to the bottom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_v._National_Collegiate_Athletic_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_v._National_Collegiate_... Even though this ruling would indicate that the federal government has no right to regulate things like cannabis consumption, 8 years later, the federal government still has the “right” to charge you with myriad felonies that should only be up to the states. So this is really all about money and power instead of principles.
jerf 3mo ago
"You're asking the US to do what is un-American. American culture is deeply individualistic." Americas have had no problem with blue laws historically [1], which are laws about what can be done on Sunday largely connected to religious observations, as well as laws on "vice" and entire vice police [2] organizations. It is no contradiction of individualism, and arguably a strong expression of it, to ensure that anything that can diminish individualism or directly attacks it also needs to be regulated. Heavy drugs, gambling, loot boxes, there's a whole variety of things that humanity has learned the hard way have a tendency to enslave those who indulge in them, and legally banning or constraining those things is perfectly in line with a philosophy of legal empowerment of the individual. We also have a loooot of ways that people having problems with addictions can reach out for help. There is some truth to the idea that we have moved in the direction of being less willing to force that help on people, and some criticisms to be made there, but then, there were historically reasons for that shift as well that need to be incorporated into any holistic opinion of the situation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law [2]: https://thelegalguide.org/what-is-vice-police-what-is-their-function/ https://thelegalguide.org/what-is-vice-police-what-is-their-...
- ElProlactin 3mo ago
  The laws you're pointing to are just the other side of the same coin. The Protestant roots of the US are arguably one of the reasons American culture is so heavily focused on individual responsibility and the idea that people who are addicts are weak and undisciplined. https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/07/history-addiction-ardent-spirits/ https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/07/history-addiction-arden...
  - jerf 3mo ago
    I think you're just stretching because it ruined your point and you refuse to admit it. I can't think of a bigger disproof of your point that Americans just let people do whatever and experience the consequences then applying the full force of law to banning the various things that are known to just hurt people without bringing anybody any gain like the hard drugs or, at least until recently, gambling. What more is America supposed to do to remove this individual freedom from people? There is no bigger stick than the law.
toast0 3mo ago
NASCAR no longer pursues the Winston cup, because tobacco advertising is banned. The Bud Bowl was discontinued becsause alcohol advertising is regulated. World Poker Tour was sponsored by (poker site).net instead of .com because advertising a real money poker site was unacceptable. I haven't watched in a long time, I dunno what their ads are like now. Restricting advertising is very American.
- ElProlactin 3mo ago
  > ...because tobacco advertising is banned. Except that it isn't: https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/tobacco-industry-marketing/what-do-tobacco-advertising-restrictions-look-today https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/tobacco-indus... And let's not talk about how the 1998 Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement had the perverse effect of making states financially dependent on tobacco sales. The annual payouts fluctuate based on cigarette shipment volumes so states want tobacco sales to continue. If tobacco sales stop, the states stop getting checks. Most of the revenue goes to general fund deficits, infrastructure development, etc., not tobacco prevention and healthcare. And a bunch of states even securitized their future settlement payout revenue so that they could get money immediately.
  - toast0 3mo ago
    > Except that it isn't Your link includes bans on tv, transit, billboards, sponsorships, tobacco branding on non-tobacco items, etc. Yes, there are a few venues where tobacco advertising is still permitted, but they can't sponsor a soccer team.
    - ElProlactin 3mo ago
      > ...but they can't sponsor a soccer team. And? Tobacco companies spend more than $8 billion/year on marketing in the US. Advertising is not banned, and unless you think these billion-dollar companies (that states perversely depend on for revenue) are run by idiots, that money is producing ROI.
      - 3mo ago
ozgrakkurt 3mo ago
Yeah like the time they banned alcohol
TitaRusell 3mo ago
Nah the US went after prescription drugs pretty hard. Even Americans can't fully deny they live in a society.

bluGill 3mo ago

The 18th amendment disagrees. While there is a large "your own fault" for things like this, there is also a large "you shouldn't be allowed to do some stupid things".

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
ElProlactin 3mo ago
Citing the 18th Amendment, which not only failed to stop the sale of alcoholic beverages but led to the creation of a massive black market, as a rebuttal to the fact that America is a highly individualistic culture in which people are largely considered responsible for their inability to regulate their own behavior, is very strange.
- bluGill 3mo ago
  The 18th amendment proves that were are not that individualistic. If we were we never would have passed it. The 18th amendment didn't stop the sale of alcohol, but it greatly reduced those sales. It did lead to a black market, but it overall did succeed in the aims of the supporters even if it wasn't perfect. Of course the supporters were not as numerous as they thought they were and so it was rolled back.
  - ElProlactin 3mo ago
    > The 18th amendment proves that were are not that individualistic. And did the 13th Amendment prove that there was no racism in America? Does the 2nd Amendment prove that all Americans love guns? The US is one of the most individualistic societies in the world. There is a significant amount of qualitative and quantitative research about this. Hofstede's cultural dimensions is probably the most popular "scoring" of this, but it's hardly the only reference. There's a reason the idea of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" originated in the US. If you've spent any time living abroad, especially in more collectivist societies (like those in Asia), you'd know how farcical it is to hold up the 18th Amendment as proof the US is not individualistic.
    - bluGill 3mo ago
      Most individualist yes. However it isn't perfect 100%
      - ElProlactin 3mo ago
        So then you're arguing that "the US isn't that individualistic, as compared to a society that doesn't exist."
        bluGill 3mo ago
        The original argument was the USA is that society that we have now agreed doesn't exist.
        ElProlactin 3mo ago
        Nothing in your comments refutes what I wrote: > American culture is deeply individualistic. From a cultural perspective, a person who fails in their recovery from addiction is seen, ultimately, as being responsible for their failure. They'd typically be criticized for being weak and undisciplined, even if the fake kindness of American culture prevents most people from saying that out loud. If you want a stunning, quantitative example, here you go: https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/news/guiding-principles-addressing-stigma-opioid-addiction https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/news/guiding-principles-addre... > Many Americans view poor individual choices/lack of discipline as the cause of opioid addiction: > 78% of Americans believe people who are addicted to prescription opioids are, themselves, to blame for the problem. > 72% believe that people addicted to prescription opioids lack self-discipline. This is despite the fact that the opioid epidemic was driven by pharma companies employing aggressive marketing and false safety claims to get doctors to overprescribe painkillers. https://alcoholstudies.rutgers.edu/the-four-sentence-letter-behind-the-rise-of-oxycontin/ https://alcoholstudies.rutgers.edu/the-four-sentence-letter-... And yet large numbers of Americans (a significant majority according to the above) still blame opioid addiction on the individuals. You can see the same general philosophy applied to issues like poverty and homelessness. https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2025/most-us-adults-think-individual-choices-keep-people-in-poverty-a-new-ap-norc-harris-poll-finds/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2025/most-us-a...
- brewdad 3mo ago
  The US is a highly individualist society in which groups of individuals love to tell those outside their group what they can and cannot do.
antiterra 3mo ago
While your assessment may be true, I don’t think the mere ratification of the amendment makes the argument. It’s much more complicated. The passing of the 18th was done through a highly organized and motivated cross-party political bloc that would throw an election to punish anyone that did not align with the dry agenda. This stacked the representative government in their favor, even if it did not match actual sentiment in their state. The repeal of the amendment however, was by vote and 73% of voters favored the repeal.
- bluGill 3mo ago
  By your numbers 27% did not. Already that is a significant minority. There are an unknown number in your 73% that support things like the amendment, but not that particular one. Speaking as an American only a tiny number are really the hard core individualists that OP is trying to reduce is to. The majority have inclinations that way but their beliefs are much more complex and cannot be reduced that far.
  - ElProlactin 3mo ago
    > Speaking as an American only a tiny number are really the hard core individualists that OP is trying to reduce is to. I'm an American who has lived abroad for many years and married into a less individualistic/more collectivist culture. It's very easy to see how individualistic the US is comparatively speaking when you get the opportunity to step outside it.

lotsofpulp 3mo ago

It was very American to restrict gambling, especially sports gambling, to very few physical locations until 2018. The government of the state of New Jersey argued that the federal government should not be able to restrict states from allowing gambling, and the Supreme Court agreed, so now there are no limits since all the states compete with each other in a race to the bottom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_v._National_Collegiate_Athletic_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_v._National_Collegiate_... Even though this ruling would indicate that the federal government has no right to regulate things like cannabis consumption, 8 years later, the federal government still has the “right” to charge you with myriad felonies that should only be up to the states. So this is really all about money and power instead of principles.

jerf 3mo ago

"You're asking the US to do what is un-American. American culture is deeply individualistic." Americas have had no problem with blue laws historically [1], which are laws about what can be done on Sunday largely connected to religious observations, as well as laws on "vice" and entire vice police [2] organizations. It is no contradiction of individualism, and arguably a strong expression of it, to ensure that anything that can diminish individualism or directly attacks it also needs to be regulated. Heavy drugs, gambling, loot boxes, there's a whole variety of things that humanity has learned the hard way have a tendency to enslave those who indulge in them, and legally banning or constraining those things is perfectly in line with a philosophy of legal empowerment of the individual. We also have a loooot of ways that people having problems with addictions can reach out for help. There is some truth to the idea that we have moved in the direction of being less willing to force that help on people, and some criticisms to be made there, but then, there were historically reasons for that shift as well that need to be incorporated into any holistic opinion of the situation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law [2]: https://thelegalguide.org/what-is-vice-police-what-is-their-function/ https://thelegalguide.org/what-is-vice-police-what-is-their-...

ElProlactin 3mo ago
The laws you're pointing to are just the other side of the same coin. The Protestant roots of the US are arguably one of the reasons American culture is so heavily focused on individual responsibility and the idea that people who are addicts are weak and undisciplined. https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/07/history-addiction-ardent-spirits/ https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/07/history-addiction-arden...
- jerf 3mo ago
  I think you're just stretching because it ruined your point and you refuse to admit it. I can't think of a bigger disproof of your point that Americans just let people do whatever and experience the consequences then applying the full force of law to banning the various things that are known to just hurt people without bringing anybody any gain like the hard drugs or, at least until recently, gambling. What more is America supposed to do to remove this individual freedom from people? There is no bigger stick than the law.

toast0 3mo ago

NASCAR no longer pursues the Winston cup, because tobacco advertising is banned. The Bud Bowl was discontinued becsause alcohol advertising is regulated. World Poker Tour was sponsored by (poker site).net instead of .com because advertising a real money poker site was unacceptable. I haven't watched in a long time, I dunno what their ads are like now. Restricting advertising is very American.

ElProlactin 3mo ago
> ...because tobacco advertising is banned. Except that it isn't: https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/tobacco-industry-marketing/what-do-tobacco-advertising-restrictions-look-today https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/tobacco-indus... And let's not talk about how the 1998 Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement had the perverse effect of making states financially dependent on tobacco sales. The annual payouts fluctuate based on cigarette shipment volumes so states want tobacco sales to continue. If tobacco sales stop, the states stop getting checks. Most of the revenue goes to general fund deficits, infrastructure development, etc., not tobacco prevention and healthcare. And a bunch of states even securitized their future settlement payout revenue so that they could get money immediately.
- toast0 3mo ago
  > Except that it isn't Your link includes bans on tv, transit, billboards, sponsorships, tobacco branding on non-tobacco items, etc. Yes, there are a few venues where tobacco advertising is still permitted, but they can't sponsor a soccer team.
  - ElProlactin 3mo ago
    > ...but they can't sponsor a soccer team. And? Tobacco companies spend more than $8 billion/year on marketing in the US. Advertising is not banned, and unless you think these billion-dollar companies (that states perversely depend on for revenue) are run by idiots, that money is producing ROI.
    - 3mo ago

ozgrakkurt 3mo ago

Yeah like the time they banned alcohol

TitaRusell 3mo ago

Nah the US went after prescription drugs pretty hard. Even Americans can't fully deny they live in a society.