5 ms·

I'd say one of the advantages of analog filming is it's more expensive to "color correct" digitally after. So maybe you get less monochrome films?

by nottorp 2mo ago

afiori 2mo ago
I would guess that the film was still mastered/produced digitally
dbspin 2mo ago
Every film is colour corrected and graded digitally (in addition to all the special effects and compositing work), and this is in fact one of the cheapest parts of the process. So no, it's not remotely a consideration.
- nottorp 2mo ago
  Sad. A little more cheap colour correction and grading and we'll be back to b&w movies.
- tshaddox 2mo ago
  Not every film. It was widely reported that Oppenheimer was color graded photochemically, and the 65mm film physically spliced (the editor of course worked in Avid with digital film scans). This means that 70 mm screenings were projecting a fully analog end-to-end pipeline. The exception, of course, is the visual effects shots, which went through a digital intermediary. The same seems to be true of The Odyssey, although the reporting is less clear as of now, and I suspect there are many more visual effects shots than Oppenheimer.
  - KaiserPro 2mo ago
    > It was widely reported that Oppenheimer was color graded photochemically, So I'm deeply sceptical of this. There was a DI colourist in the colour department and the editorial had a digital conform team and a colourist. I'm sure there was some photochemcial fiddling. but it was all conformed digitally and lasered out to be finished. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15398776/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_cst_sm https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15398776/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_c... Photochemical grading is hard and really sucks compared to DI. especially if you are trying to put in a butt tone of VFX.
    - tshaddox 2mo ago
      As I mentioned, they obvious did a digital intermediary for visual effects shots. For Oppenheimer I don't think they was much CGI, but at the bare minimum I sure they did some digital compositing, so they must have matched their photochemical color grading with digital color grading for some scenes. Also, they had a digital colorist to produce the grade for the DCP anyway, to match the look of the film master. But it seems to me that reputable sources have clearly stated that they did a fully analog film path all the way to release prints. There's this interview with the DP: https://fotokem.com/oppenheimer-hoytema-fotokem/ https://fotokem.com/oppenheimer-hoytema-fotokem/ > And once production began, FotoKem printed literally everything Nolan shot. Then after the edit was complete, FotoKem brought in Negative Cutter Simone Appleby from the Centre National du Cinéma et de l’image Animée in France to cut each section and glue it together, which starts with a list that comes out of the Avid that provides every single one of the over 3,000 shots. That list, coupled with a work print (a film version of the list of shots), was then rolled against the negative, using also a QuickTime reference with key numbers—all of which allowed Appleby to cut the physical negative together into the final assembly, from which final prints were made. And from there, Van Hoytema and Color Timer Kristen Zimmerman painstakingly perfected the color of each and every shot by hand. > Theodosiou’s focus was matching the color of the digital master to that of the analog film master because Nolan and FotoKem knew that not everybody in the world would be able to view Oppenheimer on analog film. “We were able to manipulate the images and make them look exactly how Christopher intended for them to look on film,” says Theodosiou. “For the final tweaks, we had to split screen the image between a digital and a film on the screen and match the film identically throughout, from reel one all the way to the end.”
      - KaiserPro 2mo ago
        > so they must have matched their photochemical color grading with digital color grading The VFX would be matched to what ever the spec would be. Your argument would hold more water if it wasn't the _editorial_ department that had the DI in it. In that video from the linked article is them playing back the film on a baselight with a blackboard 2 https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/control/range_cn/index_cn.php#BB2 https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/control/range_cn/index... (it might be a black magic board though) I mean yes, they _did_ do a photochemical grade. But the edit was assembled digitally, the shot conformed, sent to be cut manually, and then final grade was done photochemically. The Person who assembled the film in 65 said "I get an EDL from avid and assemble to the print" Conforming film colour in analogue is _massively_ hard. its time consuming and generally not fun to do. so it makes so much more sense to do that digitally. it would also explain the number of editorial team doing colour, because normally they don't do any of that shit.
- e0 2mo ago
  In his 60 Minutes profile, Nolan shows how The Odyssey was color corrected optically https://youtu.be/1GEqDZ3hQSo?si=8AP4TI9iY9otLrjM&t=271 I had the same question. I wondered why seeing a 70mm print was supposed to matter if it was going to get digitally edited and color graded anyhow. The answer turned out to be that neither of my speculations were true.
  - dbspin 2mo ago
    That's fascinating - presumably a facet of the IMAX process. The majority of films shot analogue are graded digitally. Because the most popular film stock they use (Kodak Verita 200D, employed for it's 'classic' look, good skin tones and modern niceties like anti static and anti halation) requires a digital stage in development [1]. [1] https://www.kodak.com/content/pdfs/motion/KODAK-VERITA-200D-5206-7206-technical-information.pdf#:~:text=Post%2DProduction.%20KODAK%20VERITA%20200D%20is%20intended%20for,to%20a%20range%20of%20flesh%20tones.%20www.kodak.com%2Fgo%2Fscanning. https://www.kodak.com/content/pdfs/motion/KODAK-VERITA-200D-...
- qingcharles 2mo ago
  I thought I saw a video showing they were color-grading The Odyssey in analog using old style color filters? edit, this user found the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49127489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49127489

I'd say one of the advantages of analog filming is it's more expensive to "color correct" digitally after. So maybe you get less monochrome films?

by nottorp 2mo ago

I'd say one of the advantages of analog filming is it's more expensive to "color correct" digitally after. So maybe you get less monochrome films?

afiori 2mo ago

I would guess that the film was still mastered/produced digitally

dbspin 2mo ago

Every film is colour corrected and graded digitally (in addition to all the special effects and compositing work), and this is in fact one of the cheapest parts of the process. So no, it's not remotely a consideration.

nottorp 2mo ago
Sad. A little more cheap colour correction and grading and we'll be back to b&w movies.
tshaddox 2mo ago
Not every film. It was widely reported that Oppenheimer was color graded photochemically, and the 65mm film physically spliced (the editor of course worked in Avid with digital film scans). This means that 70 mm screenings were projecting a fully analog end-to-end pipeline. The exception, of course, is the visual effects shots, which went through a digital intermediary. The same seems to be true of The Odyssey, although the reporting is less clear as of now, and I suspect there are many more visual effects shots than Oppenheimer.
- KaiserPro 2mo ago
  > It was widely reported that Oppenheimer was color graded photochemically, So I'm deeply sceptical of this. There was a DI colourist in the colour department and the editorial had a digital conform team and a colourist. I'm sure there was some photochemcial fiddling. but it was all conformed digitally and lasered out to be finished. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15398776/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_cst_sm https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15398776/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_c... Photochemical grading is hard and really sucks compared to DI. especially if you are trying to put in a butt tone of VFX.
  - tshaddox 2mo ago
    As I mentioned, they obvious did a digital intermediary for visual effects shots. For Oppenheimer I don't think they was much CGI, but at the bare minimum I sure they did some digital compositing, so they must have matched their photochemical color grading with digital color grading for some scenes. Also, they had a digital colorist to produce the grade for the DCP anyway, to match the look of the film master. But it seems to me that reputable sources have clearly stated that they did a fully analog film path all the way to release prints. There's this interview with the DP: https://fotokem.com/oppenheimer-hoytema-fotokem/ https://fotokem.com/oppenheimer-hoytema-fotokem/ > And once production began, FotoKem printed literally everything Nolan shot. Then after the edit was complete, FotoKem brought in Negative Cutter Simone Appleby from the Centre National du Cinéma et de l’image Animée in France to cut each section and glue it together, which starts with a list that comes out of the Avid that provides every single one of the over 3,000 shots. That list, coupled with a work print (a film version of the list of shots), was then rolled against the negative, using also a QuickTime reference with key numbers—all of which allowed Appleby to cut the physical negative together into the final assembly, from which final prints were made. And from there, Van Hoytema and Color Timer Kristen Zimmerman painstakingly perfected the color of each and every shot by hand. > Theodosiou’s focus was matching the color of the digital master to that of the analog film master because Nolan and FotoKem knew that not everybody in the world would be able to view Oppenheimer on analog film. “We were able to manipulate the images and make them look exactly how Christopher intended for them to look on film,” says Theodosiou. “For the final tweaks, we had to split screen the image between a digital and a film on the screen and match the film identically throughout, from reel one all the way to the end.”
    - KaiserPro 2mo ago
      > so they must have matched their photochemical color grading with digital color grading The VFX would be matched to what ever the spec would be. Your argument would hold more water if it wasn't the _editorial_ department that had the DI in it. In that video from the linked article is them playing back the film on a baselight with a blackboard 2 https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/control/range_cn/index_cn.php#BB2 https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/control/range_cn/index... (it might be a black magic board though) I mean yes, they _did_ do a photochemical grade. But the edit was assembled digitally, the shot conformed, sent to be cut manually, and then final grade was done photochemically. The Person who assembled the film in 65 said "I get an EDL from avid and assemble to the print" Conforming film colour in analogue is _massively_ hard. its time consuming and generally not fun to do. so it makes so much more sense to do that digitally. it would also explain the number of editorial team doing colour, because normally they don't do any of that shit.
e0 2mo ago
In his 60 Minutes profile, Nolan shows how The Odyssey was color corrected optically https://youtu.be/1GEqDZ3hQSo?si=8AP4TI9iY9otLrjM&t=271 I had the same question. I wondered why seeing a 70mm print was supposed to matter if it was going to get digitally edited and color graded anyhow. The answer turned out to be that neither of my speculations were true.
- dbspin 2mo ago
  That's fascinating - presumably a facet of the IMAX process. The majority of films shot analogue are graded digitally. Because the most popular film stock they use (Kodak Verita 200D, employed for it's 'classic' look, good skin tones and modern niceties like anti static and anti halation) requires a digital stage in development [1]. [1] https://www.kodak.com/content/pdfs/motion/KODAK-VERITA-200D-5206-7206-technical-information.pdf#:~:text=Post%2DProduction.%20KODAK%20VERITA%20200D%20is%20intended%20for,to%20a%20range%20of%20flesh%20tones.%20www.kodak.com%2Fgo%2Fscanning. https://www.kodak.com/content/pdfs/motion/KODAK-VERITA-200D-...
qingcharles 2mo ago
I thought I saw a video showing they were color-grading The Odyssey in analog using old style color filters? edit, this user found the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49127489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49127489