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There will always be a need for on-demand power. Renewables are great, but cannot deal with peaks as easily and capacity is dependent on weather.

by jrflo 2mo ago

grey-area 2mo ago
That’s why they mentioned batteries.
throw-the-towel 2mo ago
But nuclear also can't deal with peaks.
- bluefirebrand 2mo ago
  Renewables and batteries are great for peaks though. And not very good for base load Nuclear is great for base load, not great for peaks Our current situation is we are building tons of renewables and storage but still burning tons of fossil fuels because they cannot replace the base load very effectively. Nuclear replaces the carbon part of the equation
  - myrmidon 2mo ago
    "Base load" is not an actual demand that needs to be satisfied. Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if your marginal cost is lower than anyone elses (and you want/can keep running basically all of the time). Renewables ruin former baseload providers (like nuclear plants) because those plants are basically no longer making money whenever the sun shines (so the economics for nuclear plants got much worse).
    - bluefirebrand 2mo ago
      > Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if your marginal cost is lower than anyone elses (and you want/can keep running basically all of the time) The "if you can keep running all of the time" is actually the more important factor of base load than just price. I guess if you want to look at it through purely a price point thing, does the solar price effectively go to infinity when there are clouds out or it's night time? Maybe base load is the wrong term for it, I don't know. All I'm saying is that solar and wind aren't generating all of the time, and building out the storage capacity to completely cover our existing needs seems kind of unfathomable.
dolmen 2mo ago
Hydro is renewable, can deal with peaks and not directly dependent on weather. Use its power down when in need of electricity. Bring water up hill when too much electricity is available.
- ericmay 2mo ago
  Ok... but now we're damaging ecosystems by installing hydroelectric power stations and dams and such in these areas. Besides, not every country can effectively utilize hydroelectric power. Germany, like other countries, should be investing in a mix of power sources. You probably want your backbone to be nuclear and then renewables where it makes sense with a goal (at least in western countries) of also eliminating reliance on China for renewables/batteries. Dogmatism about renewables is self-defeating.
  - riedel 2mo ago
    We should make sure that the indirect cost for CO2 are added to the price of energy and imported products depending on the mix. It is one of the few areas where I think a market can fix things.
    - ericmay 2mo ago
      I’ve always thought that was a decent idea but Americans can’t even stomach higher gas prices because of the Iran war. How are they going to handle $7-$8 per gallon or more?
    - frm88 2mo ago
      That would mean we all pay for the CO2 emissions of the US army since they are the world's largest single institution consumer. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333873233_Hidden_carbon_costs_of_the_everywhere_war_Logistics_geopolitical_ecology_and_the_carbon_boot-print_of_the_US_military https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333873233_Hidden_ca... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/12/elephant-in-the-room-the-us-militarys-devastating-carbon-footprint https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/12/elephant-in-the-ro...

There will always be a need for on-demand power. Renewables are great, but cannot deal with peaks as easily and capacity is dependent on weather.

by jrflo 2mo ago

There will always be a need for on-demand power. Renewables are great, but cannot deal with peaks as easily and capacity is dependent on weather.

grey-area 2mo ago

That’s why they mentioned batteries.

throw-the-towel 2mo ago

But nuclear also can't deal with peaks.

bluefirebrand 2mo ago
Renewables and batteries are great for peaks though. And not very good for base load Nuclear is great for base load, not great for peaks Our current situation is we are building tons of renewables and storage but still burning tons of fossil fuels because they cannot replace the base load very effectively. Nuclear replaces the carbon part of the equation
- myrmidon 2mo ago
  "Base load" is not an actual demand that needs to be satisfied. Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if your marginal cost is lower than anyone elses (and you want/can keep running basically all of the time). Renewables ruin former baseload providers (like nuclear plants) because those plants are basically no longer making money whenever the sun shines (so the economics for nuclear plants got much worse).
  - bluefirebrand 2mo ago
    > Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if your marginal cost is lower than anyone elses (and you want/can keep running basically all of the time) The "if you can keep running all of the time" is actually the more important factor of base load than just price. I guess if you want to look at it through purely a price point thing, does the solar price effectively go to infinity when there are clouds out or it's night time? Maybe base load is the wrong term for it, I don't know. All I'm saying is that solar and wind aren't generating all of the time, and building out the storage capacity to completely cover our existing needs seems kind of unfathomable.

dolmen 2mo ago

Hydro is renewable, can deal with peaks and not directly dependent on weather. Use its power down when in need of electricity. Bring water up hill when too much electricity is available.

ericmay 2mo ago
Ok... but now we're damaging ecosystems by installing hydroelectric power stations and dams and such in these areas. Besides, not every country can effectively utilize hydroelectric power. Germany, like other countries, should be investing in a mix of power sources. You probably want your backbone to be nuclear and then renewables where it makes sense with a goal (at least in western countries) of also eliminating reliance on China for renewables/batteries. Dogmatism about renewables is self-defeating.
- riedel 2mo ago
  We should make sure that the indirect cost for CO2 are added to the price of energy and imported products depending on the mix. It is one of the few areas where I think a market can fix things.
  - ericmay 2mo ago
    I’ve always thought that was a decent idea but Americans can’t even stomach higher gas prices because of the Iran war. How are they going to handle $7-$8 per gallon or more?
  - frm88 2mo ago
    That would mean we all pay for the CO2 emissions of the US army since they are the world's largest single institution consumer. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333873233_Hidden_carbon_costs_of_the_everywhere_war_Logistics_geopolitical_ecology_and_the_carbon_boot-print_of_the_US_military https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333873233_Hidden_ca... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/12/elephant-in-the-room-the-us-militarys-devastating-carbon-footprint https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/12/elephant-in-the-ro...