4 ms·
NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements
- cs_throwaway 2mo agoThis is a good use of TIP division funding. Whatever they were doing before seemed pointless.
- effnorwood 2mo agoReader read NFS v4 and was disappointed in their title comprehension.
- alephnerd 2mo agoHere is the I-PhD program's website - https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/ https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/
- TimorousBestie 2mo agoVery perplexing. There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. So why are they calling it a doctorate? I don’t see the point. It’s not like the NSF under this administration is particularly fond of STEM doctorates. I’m open to any theories about what the real point of this is.
- k1musab1 2mo agoFunneling money from the government to private research that doesn't have to be disclosed, as the public funding won't be for research, but for student placement.
- TimorousBestie 2mo agoAh. That makes more sense, thanks.
- alephnerd 2mo ago> There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component... There isn't. And if you are trying to snarkily describe an MS, then most MS programs are too short. > So why are they calling it a doctorate? I don’t see the point. It’s not like the NSF under this administration is particularly fond of STEM doctorates. The I-PhD is basically a formalization of industry-sponsored PhDs based on the program site [0] [0] - https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/ https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/
- TimorousBestie 2mo ago> There isn't. My coworkers holding such degrees would beg to differ. > And if you are trying to snarkily describe an MS, then most MS programs are too short. It wasn’t snarky, it was a listing of common points between the two. I don’t see what distinguishes this from a MS. A year still isn’t enough time to write a doctoral-level thesis, so if the I-PhD is supposed to represent a “longer MS” then it’s still insufficient.
- lokar 2mo agoWhere does an MS take more then 2 years?
- oivey 2mo agoI guess people doing night school maybe? That’s pretty clearly not what this is.
- annzabelle 2mo agoWhat are you referring to with "such degrees?" Just the name of the credential would be enough. The closest stuff I can think of is a JD or an MD, but otherwise there's no common graduate credential in the US that takes 3+ years full time, other than a PhD. I guess there are EdDs and PsyDs, but I've never heard of that sort of thing in engineering. And to be pedantic, every single one of those credentials I've mentioned is a doctorate, even if it's not a PhD.
- 2mo ago
- guitarsteve 2mo agoSorry, I’m a bit thrown off. What degree are you referring to? Masters is usually about 2 years, though it could be longer in some cases or if worked on part-time. PhD is often 4-6+. What 3-4 year degree did you mean? Bachelors?
- mburns 2mo agoI assume they're referring to Professional (Graduate) degrees, like JD or MD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#United_States_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#United_Sta...
- annzabelle 2mo agoAre there professional degrees like that for, say, mathematics or physics? An aside, the Actuarial profession's fellowship credentials (FSA/FCAS) are considered to be roughly equivalent in content to a professional doctorate (not counting a medical residency), and have a completely different format. It's mostly exam based from pure self study, and aspiring actuaries typically work full time in the industry after passing the first 2-3 exams and finishing a bachelor's (which can be in any subject). Typical travel time from the first exam to the fellowship credential is 6-8 years, IIRC. Employers pay employees for some study time and for exam leave for each exam, with a bonus for each one passed. I bring this all up because there are a lot of other ways for education to be structured outside of the BS -> MS -> PhD pathway, and there are ways for learning to be integrated with industry.
- mathisfun123 2mo ago> There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. You're making this up as you go. No MS lasts 3-4 years, almost all MS theses are book reports/unpublished because the student is primarily attending classes, almost none are directed by industry (see points 1 and 2).
- dnautics 2mo agosometimes an institution will give an ms as a consolation prize for time spent not being able to finish a phd [0]. in those cases they can be upwards of 5 years, but they certainly aren't industry driven [0] often a leadership or personality failure of the PI
- mathisfun123 2mo agoWhy do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.
- smelendez 2mo agoI mean, how common is a terminal master’s program in STEM fields? I imagine there are departments where it’s more common to get a master’s by dropping out of the PhD program early than through any other path. Especially for people with a bachelor’s in the same field.
- mathisfun123 2mo ago> mean, how common is a terminal master’s program in STEM fields? Lololol extremely. They're cash cows because of foreign students paying full price and not getting tuition waivers. > Especially for people with a bachelor’s in the same field. Lol bruh an enormous number of schools have 4+1 programs to enable students getting terminal MS even easier.
- 2mo ago
- a_bonobo 2mo agoIt is ideology. It's very obvious the current US government thinks that universities are a waste of money, and that industry is where everything happens. This industry PhD shuffles money from the university's pockets into industry pockets. It's in line with the recent shrinking of PhD visa lengths in the US (from technically-infinite-but-usually-6-to-7-years to 4 years)
- nxobject 2mo agoIf you want to skip the fluff, the actual funded program abstract here: https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/show-award/?AWD_ID=2624416 https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/show-award/?AWD_ID=2624416 Appropriately enough for a pilot, there's a structured usual cohort-mentoring and outcomes evaluation component. (NSF brings 3 years of $$$, but as it is, it doesn't seem like attempt to nudge people screwed over by GRFP restrictions towards industry.)
- alephnerd 2mo agoI'd recommend the I-PhD's page instead of the NSF grant as it goes deeper into the partners as well as the program. https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/ https://uidp.org/i-phd-scholars/
- nxobject 2mo agoLooking at the $$$ awarded -- that's interesting: $37k/year, and while there's a $22,000 "ancillary expenses" component, institutions administer it, and can use it like any other indirect cost $$$. Conversely, industry funders have to stump up at least $100,000/year per student.
- nxobject 2mo agoThanks - the program guide at the very bottom seems to have the most detail. https://uidp.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/UIDP-I-PhD-Scholars-Program-Guide.pdf https://uidp.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/UIDP-I-PhD-Schol...
- thomasjeff1 2mo ago[flagged]
- math_dandy 2mo agoMy wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.
- moshun 2mo agoWhile I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.
- Brystephor 2mo agoThat sounds like an excellent thing based on that last sentence. Anecdotally, I hear people talk about trade school as being much more practical compared to the majority of traditional 4 year degrees. So I am interpreting a "move towards trade school" as an increase in practicality and therefore utility to the student.
- mulderc 2mo agoThere is no reason to assume it is “more practical” or that it will increase utility for the student. Especially at the graduate level, the deeper you are able to explore a subject and the more you can connect that subject to a broader range of topics the more utility you get from the degree. Less time to finish a degree means you are less able to do that. I would think this will decrease the likelihood of new ideas being developed which will quickly become a problem for society in general. Also no one gets a PhD because it is practical, you get it because you want to explore a topic and push the boundaries of human knowledge.
- tudelo 2mo agoI just wanted to echo your comment. Most people, in my experience, pursue an undergrad program with the intention of being employable. This is my personal experience, but also a learned opinion from being a teaching assistant for some years. Places like waterloo stress co-op, it is built in to the program. IMO the average person seeking an education are served under a model that places them in or near industry related work at some point. While I understand the original post is relating to PHDs, I think most programs (or rather, participants in programs) would love to have this sort of integration despite it being a hard problem.
- AsyncBanana 2mo agoI don't love the increasing move towards industry research instead of traditional academia. It is just going to mean more closely-held, proprietary advancements.
- jimbob45 2mo agoHow do you feel about internships?
- linguae 2mo agoAdditionally, as a former industry researcher myself who now teaches at a community college, there is less research freedom in industry, especially with very free places like 1970-era Bell Labs and Xerox PARC half a century in the rear view mirror. Focused industry research is definitely valuable, but there seems to be fewer places in modern society that allow a researcher to be driven primarily by curiosity.
- y-curious 2mo agov.s. politicking forever, enslaving grad students and making only a passable salary? Not to mention being incentivized to lie, cheat and steal when publishing in order to maintain your position? Academia as we know it has been dead for a while, and AI is the final harbinger. The reproducibility crisis got that much worse now that the papers that nobody ever bothered to reproduce have grown 10x in number with the press of a button. At least the industry research jobs pay well, even if they suffer many of the same issues.
- LearnYouALisp 2mo agoYeah, academia is very 'unregulated'
- juniperus 2mo agowell, you're allowed to patent and have proprietary rights to the contents of your graduate school research if they meet the criteria lol, in fact, that is a good idea for a student working on a novel technology. If you work for a private firm, then they presumably own the rights to patents you develop while under their employment, depending on your contract. But also, you have access to patents and technologies through the corporate patent sharing agreements and licenses that you'd never have access to in the university system, so it can work both ways, where you may be able to develop things not possible in traditional academia, but whether you actually retain those rights is not as clear as in academia.
- tinfever 2mo agoI can't figure out where I'd apply for this program as a student. Does anyone know?
- skwb 2mo agoI did my PhD funded for 3 years off of NIH and the remaining year and so off of corporate research grants. I really valued the fact that I was working on an industrial project, and could see it come to life with real funding and real backing. The critical part imho will be allowing for enough independence in research, and that the time isn't just wasted filling in remedial RAs pushing pipettes around. Real safeguards will be needed, likely overseen by the PI and committee. I genuinely hope it works and helps industry "figure out" that R&D is more than just simply productizing over the next quarter.
- dluan 2mo agoChina actually started piloting the "industry Phd" in 2025, and took inspiration from Japan, Germany, and UK where some programs do industry experience as part of Phd training. A lot of the Chinese programs are in agriculture, engineering, and biotech. China's Ministry of Education actually published the "suggestion for experimentation" (loose translation) in 2023, and it trickled out from there as each province level government and university system started designing their own systems. http://www.moe.gov.cn/srcsite/A22/moe_826/202312/t20231218_1095043.html http://www.moe.gov.cn/srcsite/A22/moe_826/202312/t20231218_1...
- tmp10423288442 2mo agoWouldn’t be the first time the US took inspiration regarding the PhD from the leading advanced manufacturing power of the day, nor from Germany for that matter.
- nothrowaways 2mo agoPhD is slavery. You would rather go straight to industry getting paid in full.
- osnium123 2mo agoI find it interesting that semiconductor companies like Applied Materials, IBM, TI, Analog Devices, Intel, Lam, Micron have not signed up to join this program since they typically hire a significant number of PhDs. Perhaps there are concerns about IP protection.
- osnium123 2mo agoIn contrast Infineon has hosted PhD students and STMicro has an Italian government research institute on their Catania campus. https://www.imm.cnr.it/institute https://www.imm.cnr.it/institute
- juniperus 2mo agoIn all fairness, there are various fields where your academic lab in graduate school and your entire degree is funded by a private firm through a grant, etc.
- valentyn235 2mo agoI did my undergrad (BSc) in the US and then came to Switzerland for grad school. In some ways, this initiative seems to split the difference between these two systems. In the US, I've seen people start PhD programs with a BSc degree and take 6-8 years. I've encountered many engineering companies at job fairs who said that for them a PhD is a disqualifying factor for many positions, because the experience is not relevant but they would need to (or felt obliged to, for whatever reason) pay extra for this degree. In Switzerland, people would do a 1.5-2 year MSc degree after their BSc. This would still be mostly classes with one 6-month-long research / technical project. This was the expectation for many technical jobs. Some then did a PhD, which would take 3-4 years and required to have a MSc already to apply. Many of these projects (at least in my field) were sponsored by the industry.
- aborsy 2mo agoFrance has a similar program called CIFRE and it is bad. An academic pairs with a buddy in industry. This relationship usually remains fixed in their careers. The representative in the company hires an engineer, makes a CIFRE contract and asks the academic to register the student and takes care of paperwork. There is no open call, competitive submission of proposals, a committee and a process. I don’t know how government is OK with this. The company sends the information about the recruitment to the government and gets tax waiver. Therefore, the company hires an engineer paid by taxpayers, nearly free for the company. A small amount of money is sent to the academic for conference travel etc. In many cases, student remains in the company and there is no need for academic other than for periodic paperwork. Importantly, the student works on tasks assigned by the company, which in many cases is not really research. It could be product improvement, mechanical work, client work, or some R&D or short term research. It’s not science or long term research, and no classes are involved. Next year, next student, it will be the same pair. The program attracts students because they want jobs (in many cases their contracts is extended after 3 years of PhD, and they are actually incentivized to work well during that 3 years and be a good employee). Companies like it because of essentially free engineers and government rapport. Academics are content because they can say they have a student (even if they don’t see the student much if at all sometimes), cite collaboration with industry, and get some money for travel. The academic cannot complain, or require student spend more time in university, because the company would say, we will replace you next time with another academic who will be happy to sign off to paperwork and not to cause issues. The three parties are happy, and the taxpayer looses, because of a badly set up program. Maybe the American version will work, not the French version!
- Skwid 2mo agoIn the UK there is the not entirely dissimilar KTP. Officially companies apply and are selected on the merit of application, in practice it's dramatically easier for companies already 'in the system' to re-apply. The engineer (Mostly engineers, but also some scientists) is legally employed by the university, but typically spends all their time at the company. No tax shenanigans, the university's expenses are straight up paid by government. They don't get a PhD, they just file reports and make presentations to the KTP org representative. It's fairly common for them to enroll with the university during a KTP though, which sometimes can be paid for from the KTP training budget. They also get a selection of training courses in business and management subjects, which curiously includes a large section on tax avoidance for small businesses.
- runtime_lens 2mo ago[flagged]
- contubernio 2mo agoEurope has already pushed shorter PhDs with the excuse of facilitating development in technology/industry. It's been a huge failure in mathematics for various reasons among which are: 1. Students don't have time to develop autonomy and independence, so this remains for the postdoctoral period. 2. Students are forced into publishing things that shouldn't be published (it's often a requirement to terminate a doctorate) and these are shallower and less complete than they should be. The true motivation seems to be that it is cheaper to fund 3 years than 5. Master's degrees have been made obligatory prior to doctorates (in the US this is traditionally not the case) and so are not covered by doctoral funding - rather they are paid for by students in many cases. It may very well have sense to have a shorter track aimed at industry, but it shouldn't be called a doctorate and all doctorates shouldn't be shunted into this setup.