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This is a very naive and wrong viewpoint. Every Religion (and its underlying Philosophy) has the concepts of "Good vs. Evil", "Right vs. Wrong" etc. baked in.

This is a very naive and wrong viewpoint. Every Religion (and its underlying Philosophy) has the concepts of "Good vs. Evil", "Right vs. Wrong" etc. baked in. These are expressed as morals, ethics, rules, law, order, harmony etc. They can be relative across cultures/societies but there are also absolutes applicable for the whole of mankind. In some Religions/Philosophies, the above concepts are not so simplistic but much more complex and nuanced. A good example is "Dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma) vs. Adharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adharma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adharma)" and "Yin and Yang" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang). These opposites wax and wane over time in a inter-related manner but for mankind to flourish the negatives must be suppressed and the positives enhanced. In order to maintain this balance, sometimes violence becomes necessary as a last resort in which case it is called "A Righteous and Just War".

dudefeliciano 3mo ago
Are there monks teaching and practicing adharma? Where does the Buddha condone violence or killing?
- rramadass 3mo ago
  Your question itself is wrong. The Buddha taught Non-Violence not Pacifism - https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/the-buddha-taught-nonviolence-not-pacifism/ https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/the-buddha-taught-no... In Hindu (eg. Mahabharata) and Buddhist (eg. Jataka tales/Counsel to Kings) traditions, you are allowed to use Adharma temporarily as a last resort to re-establish Dharma itself. You cannot escape the Karma thus generated but it is condoned and accepted as a necessity. My other comments in this thread has already elaborated on this.
  - dudefeliciano 3mo ago
    Since you linked to a Goenka tradition follower: in Goenkas evening talks he mentions the anecdote of a student who was suffering physically and mentally and could not find the cause of his suffering in western medicine, when questioned by Goenka it turns out the man worked for a defense contractor calculating trajectories of balistic missiles. Goenka responds that the man can meditate as much as he wants but he will not find peace while engaged in work that enables mass destruction. And even worse, meditation without right livelihood can even deepen the delusion by providing psychological comfort for unethical actions. If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror". If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk... Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction
    - rramadass 3mo ago
      First read my other comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49111160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49111160 The Goenka anecdote (assuming it is true) is just a story. If the man wants to be a Buddhist Monk then of course his job is a great hindrance. But as i have pointed out repeatedly, if he wants to be part of the Military than the practices can be adapted to his duties with the end goal being different. > If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror" Again no, it is not self-deception but a clear-eyed view of reality and doing what must be done according to one's station in life aka "One's Dharma". This is elaborated famously in the great Hinduism text "The Bhagavad Gita" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita > If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk... That person is not trying to be a monk but simply using their techniques to do his duties. There is always going to be karmic consequences but whether they affect his mentality or not depends on his levels of practice. > Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction I have already pointed out the definition of Wisdom and how that is to be used to establish Dharma over Adharma. They are both very practical concepts since the "Right Action" happens in the "Real World". See also my two recent submissions; Subsurface Confinement: Evidence from Submariners of the Benefits of Mindfulness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106589 Yoga in the Military: A Comprehensive Overview - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106576
dudefeliciano 3mo ago
And a few other things that made me think about your comment: > for mankind to flourish the negatives must be suppressed and the positives enhanced. This, to me, shows a profound misunderstanding of taoist teachings. Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium. And I know you were referring to just the phyisical discomfort of nuclear submarine sailors, but that's the whole point, they may have some abilities that are close to those of a monk, like focus and concentration and adapation, but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom? And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products. This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy. And so is comparing soldiers to monks IMHO.
- rramadass 3mo ago
  Read my other comment here first - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49098238 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49098238 > Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium. Your understanding of balance/equilibrium is not quite correct. There is a concept called "Egoless Action" in Hindu Philosophies. Every living being is always and continuously engaged in action, defined as state changes in Mental/Verbal/Physical (note all three) domains. Activity is synonymous with Life itself. But a wise-man/monk/yogi trains to do this "egolessly" i.e. without reference to gain/loss for his "personal self". Because all action impinges on the external environment there is always change i.e. things vary with some getting enhanced while others get suppressed. This then gets back to you as "Karma" (i.e. the fruits of the action which nobody can escape) since we and the external environment are two parts of the universal whole. This is why you are advised to focus on "Right Action" i.e. that which is in accordance with "Dharma". The vast majority of people are "normal" (i.e. selfish and egoistic) and therefore engage in all sorts of activities which result in both good and bad karma and thus suffer happiness or unhappiness accordingly. The monk/yogi understands the difference and acts egolessly to break out of the "cycle of samsara" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra) and thus achieves mental equanimity, freedom from extremes and is said to be in balance/equilibrium w.r.t. the world. "Wu Wei" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei) explains the same idea in a different form. > but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom? And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products. Your idea of "Wisdom" here is not quite right. Wisdom is the ability to make the "Right Decision" in any environment at all times and engage in "Right Action" appropriate to that environment and instant. It involves all Moral(personal)/Ethical(societal)/Practical issues and concerns. In the case of a nuclear sub, the practical reason is acting as a deterrent to support the ethical reason of protecting society which is acceptable to an individual moral sense. Hence my point about "righteous and just war". > This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy. This is exactly the wrong way to think about Philosophy. Philosophy is the most practical of all disciplines since its goal is to help us live and flourish in this society and world. There are many ways of doing it depending on your chosen "worldview" but there are some absolutes which crosscut all of them. The main thing is not to get lost in "other-worldly" ideas (which is the main problem with most people) but apply it correctly to our everyday lives. For example, there is no external heaven vs. hell but merely mental states where you experience/ruminate on good vs bad thoughts/feelings/emotions. Everything is only the "Mind" and its various manifestations. The techniques developed to control/manage/modify/transform the mind by the monks/yogis are very practical and should be used in your everyday life whatever your goals might be. The problem you are talking about is the charlatans/hucksters in the west who with zero/half-baked knowledge of the above are bent on exploiting the ignorant populace. The solution is to study/educate yourself and share it with others.

dudefeliciano 3mo ago

Are there monks teaching and practicing adharma? Where does the Buddha condone violence or killing?

rramadass 3mo ago
Your question itself is wrong. The Buddha taught Non-Violence not Pacifism - https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/the-buddha-taught-nonviolence-not-pacifism/ https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/the-buddha-taught-no... In Hindu (eg. Mahabharata) and Buddhist (eg. Jataka tales/Counsel to Kings) traditions, you are allowed to use Adharma temporarily as a last resort to re-establish Dharma itself. You cannot escape the Karma thus generated but it is condoned and accepted as a necessity. My other comments in this thread has already elaborated on this.
- dudefeliciano 3mo ago
  Since you linked to a Goenka tradition follower: in Goenkas evening talks he mentions the anecdote of a student who was suffering physically and mentally and could not find the cause of his suffering in western medicine, when questioned by Goenka it turns out the man worked for a defense contractor calculating trajectories of balistic missiles. Goenka responds that the man can meditate as much as he wants but he will not find peace while engaged in work that enables mass destruction. And even worse, meditation without right livelihood can even deepen the delusion by providing psychological comfort for unethical actions. If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror". If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk... Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction
  - rramadass 3mo ago
    First read my other comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49111160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49111160 The Goenka anecdote (assuming it is true) is just a story. If the man wants to be a Buddhist Monk then of course his job is a great hindrance. But as i have pointed out repeatedly, if he wants to be part of the Military than the practices can be adapted to his duties with the end goal being different. > If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror" Again no, it is not self-deception but a clear-eyed view of reality and doing what must be done according to one's station in life aka "One's Dharma". This is elaborated famously in the great Hinduism text "The Bhagavad Gita" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita > If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk... That person is not trying to be a monk but simply using their techniques to do his duties. There is always going to be karmic consequences but whether they affect his mentality or not depends on his levels of practice. > Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction I have already pointed out the definition of Wisdom and how that is to be used to establish Dharma over Adharma. They are both very practical concepts since the "Right Action" happens in the "Real World". See also my two recent submissions; Subsurface Confinement: Evidence from Submariners of the Benefits of Mindfulness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106589 Yoga in the Military: A Comprehensive Overview - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49106576

dudefeliciano 3mo ago

And a few other things that made me think about your comment: > for mankind to flourish the negatives must be suppressed and the positives enhanced. This, to me, shows a profound misunderstanding of taoist teachings. Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium. And I know you were referring to just the phyisical discomfort of nuclear submarine sailors, but that's the whole point, they may have some abilities that are close to those of a monk, like focus and concentration and adapation, but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom? And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products. This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy. And so is comparing soldiers to monks IMHO.

rramadass 3mo ago
Read my other comment here first - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49098238 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49098238 > Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium. Your understanding of balance/equilibrium is not quite correct. There is a concept called "Egoless Action" in Hindu Philosophies. Every living being is always and continuously engaged in action, defined as state changes in Mental/Verbal/Physical (note all three) domains. Activity is synonymous with Life itself. But a wise-man/monk/yogi trains to do this "egolessly" i.e. without reference to gain/loss for his "personal self". Because all action impinges on the external environment there is always change i.e. things vary with some getting enhanced while others get suppressed. This then gets back to you as "Karma" (i.e. the fruits of the action which nobody can escape) since we and the external environment are two parts of the universal whole. This is why you are advised to focus on "Right Action" i.e. that which is in accordance with "Dharma". The vast majority of people are "normal" (i.e. selfish and egoistic) and therefore engage in all sorts of activities which result in both good and bad karma and thus suffer happiness or unhappiness accordingly. The monk/yogi understands the difference and acts egolessly to break out of the "cycle of samsara" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra) and thus achieves mental equanimity, freedom from extremes and is said to be in balance/equilibrium w.r.t. the world. "Wu Wei" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei) explains the same idea in a different form. > but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom? And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products. Your idea of "Wisdom" here is not quite right. Wisdom is the ability to make the "Right Decision" in any environment at all times and engage in "Right Action" appropriate to that environment and instant. It involves all Moral(personal)/Ethical(societal)/Practical issues and concerns. In the case of a nuclear sub, the practical reason is acting as a deterrent to support the ethical reason of protecting society which is acceptable to an individual moral sense. Hence my point about "righteous and just war". > This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy. This is exactly the wrong way to think about Philosophy. Philosophy is the most practical of all disciplines since its goal is to help us live and flourish in this society and world. There are many ways of doing it depending on your chosen "worldview" but there are some absolutes which crosscut all of them. The main thing is not to get lost in "other-worldly" ideas (which is the main problem with most people) but apply it correctly to our everyday lives. For example, there is no external heaven vs. hell but merely mental states where you experience/ruminate on good vs bad thoughts/feelings/emotions. Everything is only the "Mind" and its various manifestations. The techniques developed to control/manage/modify/transform the mind by the monks/yogis are very practical and should be used in your everyday life whatever your goals might be. The problem you are talking about is the charlatans/hucksters in the west who with zero/half-baked knowledge of the above are bent on exploiting the ignorant populace. The solution is to study/educate yourself and share it with others.