6 ms·

Yes I do know how hard that would be. I didn't say it would be easy. Actually the browser is a non-universal OS which has several vendor extensions and incompa

by meaty 14y ago

Yes I do know how hard that would be. I didn't say it would be easy. Actually the browser is a non-universal OS which has several vendor extensions and incompatibilities which poke you in the eye day after day. It's like the UNIX fragmentation in the 90's (OSF/1=Firefox, HPUX=Chrome, Solaris=IE, UNICOS=Opera). It's possible to build something without holes. You just have to hire the right people and actually think about it before adding shitty features.

derleth 14y ago
> OSF/1=Firefox, HPUX=Chrome, Solaris=IE, UNICOS=Opera Oh, this is fun: Xenix=lynx, BSD=Konqueror, Plan 9=Uzbl http://uzbl.org/ http://uzbl.org/
killahpriest 14y ago
Stop being naive.
duncans 14y ago
> It's possible to build something without holes. You just have to... bozo bit: flipped
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
pixl97 14y ago
>It's possible to build something without holes. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/10/proving_a_compu.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/10/proving_a_comp... I'm guessing you're planning on releasing your document viewer/OS sometime around the head death of the universe.
- meaty 14y ago
  While I respect Schneier for his views, this is not one I share. I've worked in the defence industry. The cost of mistakes is very high. In my case I designed communication systems. I have one in the field which was verified mathematically and no defect, vulnerability or bug has been found in 18 years despite counter attacks. This covers the hardware and software portions of the design. As for my OS or document viewer, 5-8 years is enough time.
  - pixl97 14y ago
    In which time your program don't exist because your OS/Word processor business doesn't survive on the taxpayer teat. The problem is for businesses, most customers pay lot for features and new shiny and give a lot of lip service to the security part. The problem for open source is, most developers spend their time on features and new shiny, and the security ramifications are an afterthought.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Jach 14y ago
How many downvoters really think that making bug-free software is effectively impossible? (I suppose we must leave some meta-uncertainty about the truth of math.) Sure, many programmers would be out of work if they no longer had a large bug database to work on, but there are numerous areas in hardware and software design that have incredibly low (or 0) bugs. NASA's work is usually brought up in these conversations, for instance. Does everything need to be designed and constructed so carefully? Probably not. But I would love it if a standard web browser was, given how important the browser is.
- politician 14y ago
  That's a really important observation that bears repeating: the browser used to be a novelty application among peers, but it's increasingly become the platform upon which those applications are built. It's become a mission critical process, much like the kernel code.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I would be amazed if there was anything out there with 0 bugs. All you can really do is test the hell out of something until your chance of encountering a bug during actual use becomes vanishingly small. You might be able to engineer a browser in this way but it would just be so ludicrously far behind all of the buggy insecure browsers in terms of functionality that it's security benefit would be close to zero because nobody actually used it.
- mikeash 14y ago
  It's not so much effectively impossible as it is not possible to win with it in the market. NASA has been able to produce high-quality code, but even their stuff is not 100% bug free. Even if you consider it to be close enough, their cost is incredibly high for the amount of functionality, perhaps 10-100x the usual. So while you're slowly building a nearly-bug-free system NASA-style, you get beaten to market by another guy with a buggier system that gains popularity and becomes entrenched before you even ship.
  - kyllo 14y ago

by meaty 14y ago

derleth 14y ago

> OSF/1=Firefox, HPUX=Chrome, Solaris=IE, UNICOS=Opera Oh, this is fun: Xenix=lynx, BSD=Konqueror, Plan 9=Uzbl http://uzbl.org/ http://uzbl.org/

killahpriest 14y ago

Stop being naive.

duncans 14y ago

> It's possible to build something without holes. You just have to... bozo bit: flipped

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

pixl97 14y ago

>It's possible to build something without holes. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/10/proving_a_compu.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/10/proving_a_comp... I'm guessing you're planning on releasing your document viewer/OS sometime around the head death of the universe.

meaty 14y ago
While I respect Schneier for his views, this is not one I share. I've worked in the defence industry. The cost of mistakes is very high. In my case I designed communication systems. I have one in the field which was verified mathematically and no defect, vulnerability or bug has been found in 18 years despite counter attacks. This covers the hardware and software portions of the design. As for my OS or document viewer, 5-8 years is enough time.
- pixl97 14y ago
  In which time your program don't exist because your OS/Word processor business doesn't survive on the taxpayer teat. The problem is for businesses, most customers pay lot for features and new shiny and give a lot of lip service to the security part. The problem for open source is, most developers spend their time on features and new shiny, and the security ramifications are an afterthought.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Jach 14y ago

How many downvoters really think that making bug-free software is effectively impossible? (I suppose we must leave some meta-uncertainty about the truth of math.) Sure, many programmers would be out of work if they no longer had a large bug database to work on, but there are numerous areas in hardware and software design that have incredibly low (or 0) bugs. NASA's work is usually brought up in these conversations, for instance. Does everything need to be designed and constructed so carefully? Probably not. But I would love it if a standard web browser was, given how important the browser is.

politician 14y ago
That's a really important observation that bears repeating: the browser used to be a novelty application among peers, but it's increasingly become the platform upon which those applications are built. It's become a mission critical process, much like the kernel code.
jiggy2011 14y ago
I would be amazed if there was anything out there with 0 bugs. All you can really do is test the hell out of something until your chance of encountering a bug during actual use becomes vanishingly small. You might be able to engineer a browser in this way but it would just be so ludicrously far behind all of the buggy insecure browsers in terms of functionality that it's security benefit would be close to zero because nobody actually used it.
mikeash 14y ago
It's not so much effectively impossible as it is not possible to win with it in the market. NASA has been able to produce high-quality code, but even their stuff is not 100% bug free. Even if you consider it to be close enough, their cost is incredibly high for the amount of functionality, perhaps 10-100x the usual. So while you're slowly building a nearly-bug-free system NASA-style, you get beaten to market by another guy with a buggier system that gains popularity and becomes entrenched before you even ship.
- kyllo 14y ago