4 ms·

FCC bans foreign-produced solar inverters, grid lockout begins today

65 points by xbmcuser 2mo ago

jauntywundrkind 2mo ago
Absolute cowardice & wanton destruction of the world, this. This is just a political ploy, on no merit, and it's the same anything-and-everything as the administration pulled to prevent cheap, effective, capable wind power from happening. https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-security-82fa9799462f7eaa40556a201c9840a5 https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-secu... https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/wind/states-lawsuit-trump-defense-permitting-freeze https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/wind/states-lawsuit-tru... It's nonsense and there's no pretense, no data otherwise. The party of drill baby drill isn't about better power, about using mineral rights: it's about crony-istic state control of industry, about vested interests, about bribery corruption and grift for insiders. (That and/or they are actively trying to destroy the country wholesale, are barbarians within seeking only to destroy.) I do think there is one step I'd like to see the world take in reply, that would make this be much funnier: "we don't ship the software, you have to run that yourself". Start an open source Zephyr IoT project for inverters, and just don't distribute the software. Make people just buy the hardware. I for one welcome the world where the two come separate. I think it would be a remarkable upgrade for humanity to decouple the two, and it would be bitterly hilarious if these batshit loons somehow end up accidentally creating the better world. I can't think of what other reply would have anywhere near the force of effect of making absolute mock, and it would radically improve things. This should happen.
- cindyllm 2mo ago
  [dead]
- leonidasrup 2mo ago
  I would not call offshore wind cheap, as can bee seen in Germany in the 2025 Germany's No-Subsidy Offshore Wind Auction. https://www.offshorewind.biz/2025/08/06/germanys-2-5-gw-offshore-wind-tender-fails-to-attract-bids/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2025/08/06/germanys-2-5-gw-offs... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/analyzing-failure-germanys-no-subsidy-offshore-wind-lcn0f/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/analyzing-failure-germanys-no... Private investors are currently not willing to invest into offshore wind at market pricing. Solar is much cheaper.
  - no-name-here 2mo ago
    1. Solar may be cheaper on average, but the Trump admin wouldn’t have to be banning companies from pursuing wind and rescinding wind leases that companies had chosen to purchase (as GP commenter linked) if companies didn’t think wind was a way to generate electricity that could also generate a profit. 2. Combining wind with other forms of renewables can also be an excellent option as wind can also generate electricity at night, in more northern climates, etc.
    - leonidasrup 2mo ago
      The Trump administration is opposed to wind power, we all know that. On the other hand the claim from the article https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-security-82fa9799462f7eaa40556a201c9840a5 https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-secu... is : "Burgum says he’s worried about autonomous drones going through a wind tower field undetected because of radar interference. And, he said, the vibration of wind towers could affect undersea sonar." Maybe it's false, maybe it's true, but we can't say it for sure, because exact capabilities and limitation of military radars are classified. Personally, I think it's a half-truth, military radars have problems with detection of small slow flying drones through wind farm with a lot of moving turbine blades, but it's very improbable that someone would attack US using drones flying through offshore wind farm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Clutter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Clutter 2. Combining wind with other forms of renewables doesn't make it cheaper, but more expensive, you to build more machines, infrastructure. But in all cases, for weather dependent renewables like wind power, you have build some backup power generation for the times when wind is too weak, or too strong and wind power plant doesn't generate enough electricity. It's interesting to see that offshore wind without subsidies is not competitive even in Germany, where natural gas is much more expensive then in US. European wholesale gas is roughly 4 to 5 times more expensive than in the U.S. market. Similar situation in UK, Belgium, Japan, India https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66749344 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66749344 https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/belgium-halts-princess-elisabeth-tender/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/belgium-halts-princess-... https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/gwec-urges-japan-to-reform-offshore-wind-auctions/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/gwec-urges-japan-to-ref... https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/india-scraps-4-5gw-offshore-wind-tenders/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/india-scraps-4-5gw-offs...
tdeck 2mo ago
Can someone more familiar with the technology explain how necessary it is for the inverter to be internet connected? This seems like the kind of cloud dependency that people on HN would usually be opposed to.
- arlattimore 2mo ago
  Smart inverters allow energy companies to reduce the solar power sent to the grid to improve grid stability, avoid overload conditions etc.
- leonidasrup 2mo ago
  A small solar inverter doesn't need to be internet connected, but solar inverter app monitoring lets you track energy production, view real-time power flows, and check device status using a smartphone or tablet. So automaticaly you could get all the IoT security issues. https://solar-assistant.io/ https://solar-assistant.io/ https://apps.apple.com/us/app/solarman-smart/id1469487897 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/solarman-smart/id1469487897 If an attacker could control a significant portion of solar inverters in a solar dominated grid, he could cause an blackout, under right conditions. More in presentations at CCC: "How to cause blackout" https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7323-wie_man_einen_blackout_verursacht https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7323-wie_man_einen_blackout_veru... "BlinkenCity: Radio-Controlling Street Lamps and Power Plants" https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-blinkencity-radio-controlling-street-lamps-and-power-plants https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-blinkencity-radio-controlling-st... Large solar invertors at large solar plants muss be under remote controling of grid operators, to allow solar curtailment when the solar production exceeds electric demand or grid transmission could be overloaded. This is not specific to solar power plants, other kinds of power plants are also under control of grid operators. With increased deployment of residential solar its possible that this controlling will be extented also to residential solar.
  - lazide 2mo ago
    With sufficiently badly designed systems (lack of sufficient manual interlocks), it should also be possible to cause co-ordinated widespread fires and property damage or the like, with resulting loss of life. There was a good grid generator demonstration years ago (aurora generator cyber attack), and most cheap inverters are likely even dumber than what was demonstrated there. Likely? Probably not with current geopolitics. Possible? Hard to say, but certainly unlikely to be completely impossible. Security being the S in IoT and all, and most of these inverter stacks are pretty typical of IoT.
klooney 2mo ago
We've finally imported European style technology regulation
- Kim_Bruning 2mo ago
  Eh, European tech regulation at very least has some sane steelman published and documented, even if we personally disagree with that reasoning.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Europe does not have this style of regulations.
dlcarrier 2mo ago
If they could prohibit internet communications and allow LAN communications, that would be great. Also, it should apply regardless of where they are manufactured. It's far more likely for an attack to happen through a compromised centralized server, or a worm compromising embedded servers en masse, than it is for an authority to directly petition an attack. Also, my inverter wasn't manufactured in China, but the Wi-Fi module was made by Shanghai MXCHIP Information Technology Co., so it's no less vulnerable.
chrisjj 2mo ago
> prove their code cannot be manipulated remotely That's not technically possible, surely.
kotaKat 2mo ago
Not like the threat was in the room with us this entire time. Looking at all those APC UPSes that had the TLSstorm exploit and possibility of actual burnout and fire... But sure. It's the evil evil Chinese shit that's the problem. I feel so much safer knowing we banned things like Autel's drones, random power inverters, and Unitree robots, but not Autel's key programmers kids are using to steal cars! Funny thing searching "autel teenager stolen cars" and seeing hundreds of police releases of kids getting busted with guns and Autel tablets and a shitton of universally programmable keys. I feel so much safer knowing the Chinese drones can't spy on me while the kids steal my car. :)
- nicman23 2mo ago
  i mean at least you can sue apc
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    You can also due whoever imports faulty Chinese equipment. With cross-border trade, the importer becomes liable for everything the manufacturer would be liable for if it was domestically manufactured.
giov4 2mo ago
while I totally understand the risk of foreign hardware and firmware, this is exclusively a sabotage of green power development confirmed by the methodology and speed of implementation of it. blocking related projects by forcing a supply chain re-co figuration and disconnect from grid for non compliancy it's a clear targeted sabotage and does not mitigate the risk! -> us produced inverter with asian chips and firmware anyway! this is only devolution and it can happen only there, especially WITHOUT a clear transition or migration plan that considers hardware, industry and infrastructure! if more power is needed, and power costs are increasing, why force disconnect and sabotage development for green power? dont forget to do 1+1 with the reality of your state dear citizens!
- lazide 2mo ago
  Counterpoint - building out even more critical infrastructure which might as well be coming pre-rootkitted by a known foreign adversary seems quite dumb?
  - giov4 2mo ago
    nope, that's the defacto standard for the past 30 years and I was against it for security reasons, it was not dumb it was convenient in times of peace for many! so I agree if my country would produce and enforce usage of country developed inverters with a correct and ramp up plan to reach that. but hard cutting it without having the infrastructure and market ready to compensate that is just full "rword"ness. and then there will be still parts of boards and chips coming anyway from external suppliers and being "fake" ? what about the real crit infra beside solar and wind? what about the supply chain there? fully localized? 3rd party and 4th party fully audited? is just a joke
  - cyanydeez 2mo ago
    there's no evidence for the countpoint; so it's mostly counterparanoia.
    - voakbasda 2mo ago
      There is a ton of evidence that equipment out of China can come with built-in backdoors and worse.
dangoljames 2mo ago
What the hell does the FCC have to do witb power inverters? Dont they have some drone pilots to harass or something?
- kingwill101 2mo ago
  Aren't responsible for certifying?
- inigyou 2mo ago
  all electronics need FCC certification to say they don't emit radio interference. The FCC has just decertified several classes of electronics - taking away their certificate of "this doesn't emit radio interference" - for political ideological reasons that have nothing to do with radio interference. It's Trump's handlers finding any legally available lever to pull, like how they started tariffs "to fight slavery" the other week because they found a law letting them impose tariffs against slave countries.
GuB-42 2mo ago
[dead]
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
metalman 2mo ago
the scale of this order is breath taking, it is a massive windfall for projects outside of the US, as depending on how contracts were written, american companys are still be on the hook to take delivery and will now have to resell at a discount, which may all get lost in various financial restructuring and bankruptcys, while setting US solar back years, add in that the latest bump in oil futures means that demand for solar just went up, and not only the inverters, but the specialists who design the systems that use them, will be able to find something to do. The other thing is that ANY project useing a chip from China, will now be hitting pause. wow.

65 points by xbmcuser 2mo ago

Absolute cowardice & wanton destruction of the world, this. This is just a political ploy, on no merit, and it's the same anything-and-everything as the administration pulled to prevent cheap, effective, capable wind power from happening. https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-security-82fa9799462f7eaa40556a201c9840a5 https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-secu... https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/wind/states-lawsuit-trump-defense-permitting-freeze https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/wind/states-lawsuit-tru... It's nonsense and there's no pretense, no data otherwise. The party of drill baby drill isn't about better power, about using mineral rights: it's about crony-istic state control of industry, about vested interests, about bribery corruption and grift for insiders. (That and/or they are actively trying to destroy the country wholesale, are barbarians within seeking only to destroy.) I do think there is one step I'd like to see the world take in reply, that would make this be much funnier: "we don't ship the software, you have to run that yourself". Start an open source Zephyr IoT project for inverters, and just don't distribute the software. Make people just buy the hardware. I for one welcome the world where the two come separate. I think it would be a remarkable upgrade for humanity to decouple the two, and it would be bitterly hilarious if these batshit loons somehow end up accidentally creating the better world. I can't think of what other reply would have anywhere near the force of effect of making absolute mock, and it would radically improve things. This should happen.

cindyllm 2mo ago
[dead]
leonidasrup 2mo ago
I would not call offshore wind cheap, as can bee seen in Germany in the 2025 Germany's No-Subsidy Offshore Wind Auction. https://www.offshorewind.biz/2025/08/06/germanys-2-5-gw-offshore-wind-tender-fails-to-attract-bids/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2025/08/06/germanys-2-5-gw-offs... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/analyzing-failure-germanys-no-subsidy-offshore-wind-lcn0f/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/analyzing-failure-germanys-no... Private investors are currently not willing to invest into offshore wind at market pricing. Solar is much cheaper.
- no-name-here 2mo ago
  1. Solar may be cheaper on average, but the Trump admin wouldn’t have to be banning companies from pursuing wind and rescinding wind leases that companies had chosen to purchase (as GP commenter linked) if companies didn’t think wind was a way to generate electricity that could also generate a profit. 2. Combining wind with other forms of renewables can also be an excellent option as wind can also generate electricity at night, in more northern climates, etc.
  - leonidasrup 2mo ago
    The Trump administration is opposed to wind power, we all know that. On the other hand the claim from the article https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-security-82fa9799462f7eaa40556a201c9840a5 https://apnews.com/article/trump-offshore-wind-national-secu... is : "Burgum says he’s worried about autonomous drones going through a wind tower field undetected because of radar interference. And, he said, the vibration of wind towers could affect undersea sonar." Maybe it's false, maybe it's true, but we can't say it for sure, because exact capabilities and limitation of military radars are classified. Personally, I think it's a half-truth, military radars have problems with detection of small slow flying drones through wind farm with a lot of moving turbine blades, but it's very improbable that someone would attack US using drones flying through offshore wind farm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Clutter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Clutter 2. Combining wind with other forms of renewables doesn't make it cheaper, but more expensive, you to build more machines, infrastructure. But in all cases, for weather dependent renewables like wind power, you have build some backup power generation for the times when wind is too weak, or too strong and wind power plant doesn't generate enough electricity. It's interesting to see that offshore wind without subsidies is not competitive even in Germany, where natural gas is much more expensive then in US. European wholesale gas is roughly 4 to 5 times more expensive than in the U.S. market. Similar situation in UK, Belgium, Japan, India https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66749344 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66749344 https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/belgium-halts-princess-elisabeth-tender/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/belgium-halts-princess-... https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/gwec-urges-japan-to-reform-offshore-wind-auctions/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/gwec-urges-japan-to-ref... https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/india-scraps-4-5gw-offshore-wind-tenders/ https://www.renews.biz/offshore-wind/india-scraps-4-5gw-offs...

tdeck 2mo ago

Can someone more familiar with the technology explain how necessary it is for the inverter to be internet connected? This seems like the kind of cloud dependency that people on HN would usually be opposed to.

arlattimore 2mo ago
Smart inverters allow energy companies to reduce the solar power sent to the grid to improve grid stability, avoid overload conditions etc.
leonidasrup 2mo ago
A small solar inverter doesn't need to be internet connected, but solar inverter app monitoring lets you track energy production, view real-time power flows, and check device status using a smartphone or tablet. So automaticaly you could get all the IoT security issues. https://solar-assistant.io/ https://solar-assistant.io/ https://apps.apple.com/us/app/solarman-smart/id1469487897 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/solarman-smart/id1469487897 If an attacker could control a significant portion of solar inverters in a solar dominated grid, he could cause an blackout, under right conditions. More in presentations at CCC: "How to cause blackout" https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7323-wie_man_einen_blackout_verursacht https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7323-wie_man_einen_blackout_veru... "BlinkenCity: Radio-Controlling Street Lamps and Power Plants" https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-blinkencity-radio-controlling-street-lamps-and-power-plants https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-blinkencity-radio-controlling-st... Large solar invertors at large solar plants muss be under remote controling of grid operators, to allow solar curtailment when the solar production exceeds electric demand or grid transmission could be overloaded. This is not specific to solar power plants, other kinds of power plants are also under control of grid operators. With increased deployment of residential solar its possible that this controlling will be extented also to residential solar.
- lazide 2mo ago
  With sufficiently badly designed systems (lack of sufficient manual interlocks), it should also be possible to cause co-ordinated widespread fires and property damage or the like, with resulting loss of life. There was a good grid generator demonstration years ago (aurora generator cyber attack), and most cheap inverters are likely even dumber than what was demonstrated there. Likely? Probably not with current geopolitics. Possible? Hard to say, but certainly unlikely to be completely impossible. Security being the S in IoT and all, and most of these inverter stacks are pretty typical of IoT.

klooney 2mo ago

We've finally imported European style technology regulation

Kim_Bruning 2mo ago
Eh, European tech regulation at very least has some sane steelman published and documented, even if we personally disagree with that reasoning.
inigyou 2mo ago
Europe does not have this style of regulations.

dlcarrier 2mo ago

If they could prohibit internet communications and allow LAN communications, that would be great. Also, it should apply regardless of where they are manufactured. It's far more likely for an attack to happen through a compromised centralized server, or a worm compromising embedded servers en masse, than it is for an authority to directly petition an attack. Also, my inverter wasn't manufactured in China, but the Wi-Fi module was made by Shanghai MXCHIP Information Technology Co., so it's no less vulnerable.

chrisjj 2mo ago

> prove their code cannot be manipulated remotely That's not technically possible, surely.

kotaKat 2mo ago

Not like the threat was in the room with us this entire time. Looking at all those APC UPSes that had the TLSstorm exploit and possibility of actual burnout and fire... But sure. It's the evil evil Chinese shit that's the problem. I feel so much safer knowing we banned things like Autel's drones, random power inverters, and Unitree robots, but not Autel's key programmers kids are using to steal cars! Funny thing searching "autel teenager stolen cars" and seeing hundreds of police releases of kids getting busted with guns and Autel tablets and a shitton of universally programmable keys. I feel so much safer knowing the Chinese drones can't spy on me while the kids steal my car. :)

nicman23 2mo ago
i mean at least you can sue apc
- inigyou 2mo ago
  You can also due whoever imports faulty Chinese equipment. With cross-border trade, the importer becomes liable for everything the manufacturer would be liable for if it was domestically manufactured.

giov4 2mo ago

while I totally understand the risk of foreign hardware and firmware, this is exclusively a sabotage of green power development confirmed by the methodology and speed of implementation of it. blocking related projects by forcing a supply chain re-co figuration and disconnect from grid for non compliancy it's a clear targeted sabotage and does not mitigate the risk! -> us produced inverter with asian chips and firmware anyway! this is only devolution and it can happen only there, especially WITHOUT a clear transition or migration plan that considers hardware, industry and infrastructure! if more power is needed, and power costs are increasing, why force disconnect and sabotage development for green power? dont forget to do 1+1 with the reality of your state dear citizens!

lazide 2mo ago
Counterpoint - building out even more critical infrastructure which might as well be coming pre-rootkitted by a known foreign adversary seems quite dumb?
- giov4 2mo ago
  nope, that's the defacto standard for the past 30 years and I was against it for security reasons, it was not dumb it was convenient in times of peace for many! so I agree if my country would produce and enforce usage of country developed inverters with a correct and ramp up plan to reach that. but hard cutting it without having the infrastructure and market ready to compensate that is just full "rword"ness. and then there will be still parts of boards and chips coming anyway from external suppliers and being "fake" ? what about the real crit infra beside solar and wind? what about the supply chain there? fully localized? 3rd party and 4th party fully audited? is just a joke
- cyanydeez 2mo ago
  there's no evidence for the countpoint; so it's mostly counterparanoia.
  - voakbasda 2mo ago
    There is a ton of evidence that equipment out of China can come with built-in backdoors and worse.

dangoljames 2mo ago

What the hell does the FCC have to do witb power inverters? Dont they have some drone pilots to harass or something?

kingwill101 2mo ago
Aren't responsible for certifying?
inigyou 2mo ago
all electronics need FCC certification to say they don't emit radio interference. The FCC has just decertified several classes of electronics - taking away their certificate of "this doesn't emit radio interference" - for political ideological reasons that have nothing to do with radio interference. It's Trump's handlers finding any legally available lever to pull, like how they started tariffs "to fight slavery" the other week because they found a law letting them impose tariffs against slave countries.

GuB-42 2mo ago

[dead]

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

metalman 2mo ago

the scale of this order is breath taking, it is a massive windfall for projects outside of the US, as depending on how contracts were written, american companys are still be on the hook to take delivery and will now have to resell at a discount, which may all get lost in various financial restructuring and bankruptcys, while setting US solar back years, add in that the latest bump in oil futures means that demand for solar just went up, and not only the inverters, but the specialists who design the systems that use them, will be able to find something to do. The other thing is that ANY project useing a chip from China, will now be hitting pause. wow.