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> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and do

> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude, an obvious optimization for reducing circuitry. If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer for a particular harmonic series; instead we need an input that places it relative to the other tones even after the halving/doubling. Consider the fact that we name both middle C and high C as "C" because, even though they are different notes, they sound so similar that we literally deliberately confuse them notationally as they play the same role in harmony: one can be used to replace the other. > Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect. Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof. In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing. In the essay, there is a quotation from Daniel Levitin's book "This is your Brain on Music" where it discusses an experiment he witnessed in graduate school where music was played through wiring directly into the brain of an owl. The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root (see the essay for details). That means that virtual pitch (1) is created by the structure of the brain, not by a cultural expectation, and (2) further, that it is created by the brain of, not just a human, but of an owl! This is a very strong argument for the assertion that the processing of sound and the artifacts thereof are quite universal, not just across cultures, but across species. > ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof? I did not know that Berklee is that strong in computer science. The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm. In this case, one recognizer fires, that of the conjunction of three pairwise intervals of tones, whereas another recognizer does not fire, that if the triple of tones in order. This combination of firings is inconsistent because it is not possible for it to occur by playing any single normal harmonic series on, say, a flute. To generate it, one must play multiple notes and then use the effect of the recognizer of intervals pairing up tones from across the notes. That is, this is a new kind of auditory perception that can be created as an artifact of the auditory recognizer algorithms of the brain, but cannot be heard otherwise. This is harmony. If this this was taught to you at Berklee, please tell me which course that was and what the textbook is so I can look it up in the course syllabus and table of contents.

BigTTYGothGF 2mo ago
> one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude You've got an awful lot of assumptions in there that I don't think are at all supported, and this is one. It's also contradicted by 3.5.2 in the article: if the brain were actually doing this, then you could, say, replace the 9th by the 2nd. > Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof. I interpreted "mostly meets expectations but surprises you" as referring to things like chord progressions creating tension and resolving it, for which you don't need major triads. (and of which there's no discussion in the article). > In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing I'm perfectly happy to grant that an owl experienced the sensation of a pitch at a frequency that was not actually present, but there's something missing here that's also totally missing from the article: the role of the cochlea. The brain doesn't experience sounds, i.e. the pressure waves in the air, the brain experiences electrical signals transmitted to it that, tinnitus aside, come from excitement of the cochlea by those pressure waves. How do we know that there isn't some kind of mechanical resonance somewhere in the ear that fills in the missing root? And if we know there isn't in the human ear, how do we know the same for the owl? > The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm. Once upon a time the explanation of the propagation of light required the concept of a luminiferous ether.
klik99 2mo ago
I ask that you please read the comments before you make your own comments, just as you asked people to read the paper before commenting (I did!) > Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact I never said that. I said "Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics." To put it in your terms, "you cannot make a fully scientific theory since nurture factors in just as much (and maybe even more) than nature". The world is not black and white, just because I believe sociology to be critical to understanding the emotional effect of music on people, does not mean I'm claiming there is no objective, measurable component. > If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer" Ok so the happiest music is perfect fifths? Or is 3/2 ratio also too simple? So when does this recognizer get complicated enough to fire? 5/4? For someone claiming to have a scientific theory, you are making a lot of assumptions to make this theory work. Scientific theory is about testing hypothesis to reveal truth and not making hypothesis up to match what you already believe. You make an assumption that the brain wraps/aliases frequencies, create a theory of the recognizer, and then make that recognizer have a very convenient threshold that it makes a physical process suddenly the reasoning for "happy". To the "fully scientfic theory" above, I absolutely agree that ratios play a part, simple ratios are boring, and get more interesting as they get complex, then get too complex and it sounds dissonant. That part I think we, and most people, can agree is objectively true, and fits in the theory of expectation vs surprise at a microscale. I just don't agree this translates to "happy" or "sad". Please show me an experiment that indicates the kind of recognizer that you're talking about, or some kind of cross cultural link between ratios and emotional quality. I'd actually be very curious about that, as it's been a while since I've been reading papers about this. > The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root Yes, I'm sure you know this, I'm just showing I know this too - this is called psychoacoustic bass, and happens as part of the feedback loop between the brain processing and the actual ear - the ear actually generates the root tone! This could also be a product of pattern matching though, as we're used to hearing related harmonics (say 200, 300hz) with a root (100hz), so if we just get the harmonics without a root (200, 300hz) the psychoacoustic part of your brain helps out by filling in the 100hz - this is an alternate theory to the aliasing/halving/doubling theory you put out, not saying either one is absolutely true, just that there are other explanations for the owl thing. It also has nothing to do with the emotional effect of the music. > So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof? Again, I did not say that. I'm not talking about the speculative, non-experimentally backed parts of your theory, just the parts of your essay that are part of the common scientific consensus. I said "ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee". Nothing more.

BigTTYGothGF 2mo ago

> one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude You've got an awful lot of assumptions in there that I don't think are at all supported, and this is one. It's also contradicted by 3.5.2 in the article: if the brain were actually doing this, then you could, say, replace the 9th by the 2nd. > Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof. I interpreted "mostly meets expectations but surprises you" as referring to things like chord progressions creating tension and resolving it, for which you don't need major triads. (and of which there's no discussion in the article). > In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing I'm perfectly happy to grant that an owl experienced the sensation of a pitch at a frequency that was not actually present, but there's something missing here that's also totally missing from the article: the role of the cochlea. The brain doesn't experience sounds, i.e. the pressure waves in the air, the brain experiences electrical signals transmitted to it that, tinnitus aside, come from excitement of the cochlea by those pressure waves. How do we know that there isn't some kind of mechanical resonance somewhere in the ear that fills in the missing root? And if we know there isn't in the human ear, how do we know the same for the owl? > The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm. Once upon a time the explanation of the propagation of light required the concept of a luminiferous ether.

klik99 2mo ago

I ask that you please read the comments before you make your own comments, just as you asked people to read the paper before commenting (I did!) > Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact I never said that. I said "Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics." To put it in your terms, "you cannot make a fully scientific theory since nurture factors in just as much (and maybe even more) than nature". The world is not black and white, just because I believe sociology to be critical to understanding the emotional effect of music on people, does not mean I'm claiming there is no objective, measurable component. > If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer" Ok so the happiest music is perfect fifths? Or is 3/2 ratio also too simple? So when does this recognizer get complicated enough to fire? 5/4? For someone claiming to have a scientific theory, you are making a lot of assumptions to make this theory work. Scientific theory is about testing hypothesis to reveal truth and not making hypothesis up to match what you already believe. You make an assumption that the brain wraps/aliases frequencies, create a theory of the recognizer, and then make that recognizer have a very convenient threshold that it makes a physical process suddenly the reasoning for "happy". To the "fully scientfic theory" above, I absolutely agree that ratios play a part, simple ratios are boring, and get more interesting as they get complex, then get too complex and it sounds dissonant. That part I think we, and most people, can agree is objectively true, and fits in the theory of expectation vs surprise at a microscale. I just don't agree this translates to "happy" or "sad". Please show me an experiment that indicates the kind of recognizer that you're talking about, or some kind of cross cultural link between ratios and emotional quality. I'd actually be very curious about that, as it's been a while since I've been reading papers about this. > The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root Yes, I'm sure you know this, I'm just showing I know this too - this is called psychoacoustic bass, and happens as part of the feedback loop between the brain processing and the actual ear - the ear actually generates the root tone! This could also be a product of pattern matching though, as we're used to hearing related harmonics (say 200, 300hz) with a root (100hz), so if we just get the harmonics without a root (200, 300hz) the psychoacoustic part of your brain helps out by filling in the 100hz - this is an alternate theory to the aliasing/halving/doubling theory you put out, not saying either one is absolutely true, just that there are other explanations for the owl thing. It also has nothing to do with the emotional effect of the music. > So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof? Again, I did not say that. I'm not talking about the speculative, non-experimentally backed parts of your theory, just the parts of your essay that are part of the common scientific consensus. I said "ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee". Nothing more.