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A few things you can legally do online without ID or age verification in the US 1) buy cigars and pipe tobacco (but not cigarettes!) 2) Buy "CBD" by the pound

A few things you can legally do online without ID or age verification in the US 1) buy cigars and pipe tobacco (but not cigarettes!) 2) Buy "CBD" by the pound 3) Buy ammunition, a barrel and the rest of gun parts for a glock, except a frame/receiver that can be 3d printed in a few hours to complete it. 4) Order and have delivered wine But there are people arguing to skip all that and go to straight to ID for social media. It isn't about the children. It's about keeping tabs on who says what.

mr_mitm 2mo ago
Is teens ordering wine a big issue in the US? Bigger than social media?
- forgetfreeman 2mo ago
  Of course not. But literally any excuse that comes to hand will be deployed if it helps the tech industry continue to avoid meaningful consequences. The same handful of companies that have engineered a global surveillance suite that rivals the most tyrannical sovereign governments wildest dreams (and can trivially detect the approximate age of a user) will without a shred of irony deploy legions of paid influencers and other astroturf to decry age verification as an assault on privacy.
  - hnav 2mo ago
    But it is an assault on privacy. If "protecting kids" was the goal here they'd push for regulation that forces websites to return standardized metadata that then gets interpreted by the user agent which can be configured by the parent.
    - tosti 2mo ago
      Nah, that's a perfectly fine technical solution. Powers that be don't think like that. They understand pulling someone over to check their license, so something like that will do.
    - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
      sigh If data brokerages, Meta, Google, and Palantir are all staring at you how is it possible to claim privacy is even possible? Like, you have to have a thing before it's possible to assault it.
      - hnav 2mo ago
        OHTTP, VPNs, proxies, tor, privacy hardened browsers at least attempt to hide you, if providers are "required" to ID you that all becomes moot.
        forgetfreeman 2mo ago
        So having established one would have to institute I'm-hiding-from-at-least-two-sovereign-governments-that-are-actively-hunting-me levels of OPSEC to even stand a chance of avoiding being thoroughly fingerprinted I'm fairly confident in my point is proven here. I don't see anyone proposing to gut Meta and Google's business models, ban data brokerages, or any of a myriad other possible things that would at least in theory result in the possibility of actual online privacy. What I'm seeing is folks screeching at the prospect of a legal framework by which these companies negative impacts on kids might be managed. And of course literally no alternatives are proposed to address said harms in lieu of requiring ID so here we are.
        hnav 2mo ago
        You're attacking a strawman, there are definitely alternatives such as mandating a protocol for describing content that parent-controlled content policies in user agents would key off of. I mean even today you can just ban instagram on your kid's phone. Regarding futility of trying to preserve privacy, I'm not sure if you're aware that Apple doesn't have much of a standalone service business and it's widely deploying OHTTP, anti-fingerprinting, etc. Obviously they moderate their efforts to not push too far, too fast, yet fingerpriting a mobile user on iOS is not trivial.
        forgetfreeman 2mo ago
Dwedit 2mo ago
Usually the delivery person asks for ID when delivering the wine?
- kelseyfrog 2mo ago
  For the purpose of the argument, they don't.
- iLoveOncall 2mo ago
  They absolutely don't. They ask for your date of birth to fill it on their app and that's it.
  - hunterpayne 2mo ago
    In most US states, they require the delivery driver to recheck the ID in person. Depends on the state though.
    - mothballed 2mo ago
      Not for wine, not usually. Wine can be mail ordered, the carrier has no idea what it even is. They might require signature on delivey, but anyone who's dealt with UPS and fedex know they will essentially never look at ID. In high school I used to order wine and they had me sign but I was under 18, the box was non-descript and the delivery man had no idea what it was so a kid signing for it made no difference. It's different than beer or liquor sales where it's under the more recent COVID era exceptions that require checking ID and the delivery person actually knows what it is. The mail order wine stuff is way older and under way different rules than most other alcohol delivery services.
      - hunterpayne 2mo ago
        As I said, it depends on the state. I've had to sign for wine before.
        2mo ago
rglover 2mo ago
#1 isn't entirely true. It's a soft-gate but you are legally required to verify age on your site before completing the purchase (I run a boutique cigar brand [1]). [1] https://philosophercigars.com https://philosophercigars.com

mr_mitm 2mo ago

Is teens ordering wine a big issue in the US? Bigger than social media?

forgetfreeman 2mo ago
Of course not. But literally any excuse that comes to hand will be deployed if it helps the tech industry continue to avoid meaningful consequences. The same handful of companies that have engineered a global surveillance suite that rivals the most tyrannical sovereign governments wildest dreams (and can trivially detect the approximate age of a user) will without a shred of irony deploy legions of paid influencers and other astroturf to decry age verification as an assault on privacy.
- hnav 2mo ago
  But it is an assault on privacy. If "protecting kids" was the goal here they'd push for regulation that forces websites to return standardized metadata that then gets interpreted by the user agent which can be configured by the parent.
  - tosti 2mo ago
    Nah, that's a perfectly fine technical solution. Powers that be don't think like that. They understand pulling someone over to check their license, so something like that will do.
  - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
    sigh If data brokerages, Meta, Google, and Palantir are all staring at you how is it possible to claim privacy is even possible? Like, you have to have a thing before it's possible to assault it.
    - hnav 2mo ago
      OHTTP, VPNs, proxies, tor, privacy hardened browsers at least attempt to hide you, if providers are "required" to ID you that all becomes moot.
      - forgetfreeman 2mo ago
        So having established one would have to institute I'm-hiding-from-at-least-two-sovereign-governments-that-are-actively-hunting-me levels of OPSEC to even stand a chance of avoiding being thoroughly fingerprinted I'm fairly confident in my point is proven here. I don't see anyone proposing to gut Meta and Google's business models, ban data brokerages, or any of a myriad other possible things that would at least in theory result in the possibility of actual online privacy. What I'm seeing is folks screeching at the prospect of a legal framework by which these companies negative impacts on kids might be managed. And of course literally no alternatives are proposed to address said harms in lieu of requiring ID so here we are.
        hnav 2mo ago
        You're attacking a strawman, there are definitely alternatives such as mandating a protocol for describing content that parent-controlled content policies in user agents would key off of. I mean even today you can just ban instagram on your kid's phone. Regarding futility of trying to preserve privacy, I'm not sure if you're aware that Apple doesn't have much of a standalone service business and it's widely deploying OHTTP, anti-fingerprinting, etc. Obviously they moderate their efforts to not push too far, too fast, yet fingerpriting a mobile user on iOS is not trivial.
        forgetfreeman 2mo ago

Dwedit 2mo ago

Usually the delivery person asks for ID when delivering the wine?

kelseyfrog 2mo ago
For the purpose of the argument, they don't.
iLoveOncall 2mo ago
They absolutely don't. They ask for your date of birth to fill it on their app and that's it.
- hunterpayne 2mo ago
  In most US states, they require the delivery driver to recheck the ID in person. Depends on the state though.
  - mothballed 2mo ago
    Not for wine, not usually. Wine can be mail ordered, the carrier has no idea what it even is. They might require signature on delivey, but anyone who's dealt with UPS and fedex know they will essentially never look at ID. In high school I used to order wine and they had me sign but I was under 18, the box was non-descript and the delivery man had no idea what it was so a kid signing for it made no difference. It's different than beer or liquor sales where it's under the more recent COVID era exceptions that require checking ID and the delivery person actually knows what it is. The mail order wine stuff is way older and under way different rules than most other alcohol delivery services.
    - hunterpayne 2mo ago
      As I said, it depends on the state. I've had to sign for wine before.
      - 2mo ago

rglover 2mo ago

#1 isn't entirely true. It's a soft-gate but you are legally required to verify age on your site before completing the purchase (I run a boutique cigar brand [1]). [1] https://philosophercigars.com https://philosophercigars.com