4 ms·

Ah that does it. Abortion pills are not candies. There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. If thes

by eur0pa 2mo ago

Ah that does it. Abortion pills are not candies. There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. If these websites facilitate the distribution of prescription meds, they're no different from other "online pharmacies" and get the same treatment

mistrial9 2mo ago
in this part of the world, Mexico is known for public pharmacies that sell wildly-strong drugs of different kinds easily.. I doubt there are any websites that list what you can actually get if you walk in with cash
chpatrick 2mo ago
In Hungary abortion is technically legal but only surgically, and the public health system is mental torture including being forced to listen to the heartbeat of the fetus (thanks to our local fascist party). Women on Web is a million times more humane. It's not like anyone thinks "oh I'm pregnant I'll just pop a pill and it's solved".
- ktm5j 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Woshiwuja 2mo ago
    [dead]
  - Forgeties79 2mo ago
    > but I also think that it's a good idea to know what you're doing Why do so many people say this about women and their bodies? You seriously think the vast majority of women considering an abortion haven’t given it much thought? Should they all have to face more obstructions and guilt trips and patronizing lectures because a handful maybe don’t? It’s ridiculous. As for the “heartbeat” standard, I’m not getting in to it, suffice to say that should not be a bar here for deciding a woman’s rights. > I stand by this comment, downvote all you like folks. I wasn’t going to until this part of your comment.
    - true_religion 2mo ago
      They are just applying the same logic behind all prescription medication to abortion pills. To this day, despite having taken them for the past 30 years, I still require a new prescription for Adderall because society deemed the addiction risk too high to avoid inserting a doctor into the equation every 30 days. Abortifacients can cause the death of the person taking them. That’s something no one wants. Can some people manage the risks of prescription medication on their own? Yes, but like with Adderall, society tends to lean towards caution and considers a doctor’s visit to be morally neutral as doctors aren’t expected to moralize and guilt but perform a medical service. Personally, I think a doctor who guilts someone over medication should have their license revoked. There’s a time and place for such feelings but medical interventions are life and death.
      - Forgeties79 2mo ago
        He is talking about abortion writ large, not the relative risk of a specific medication. He’s even making an appeal to the “heart beat rule.”
        true_religion 2mo ago
        When writing my comment, I did think to myself that the commenter might be biased, but it was borderline. So I deliberately chose to steel-man the argument. They are of course free to destroy their credibility and end civil discussion, but I didn't want to do it for them.
        Forgeties79 2mo ago
        > So I deliberately chose to steel-man the argument. Please don’t do that. This isn’t a debate team sparring session.
        true_religion 2mo ago
        I was under the impression that on HN you were obligated to assume the best possible argument, instead of the worst. Am I wrong?
  - Tade0 2mo ago
    Friendly reminder that at the 6th week, when the heartbeat is detectable, the body is still undecided whether it will keep the fetus. It's not an indicator of anything - just something we're emotionally attached to as humans. 20-25% otherwise healthy pregnancies end spontaneously before the 12th week and it's a mechanism used in non-surgical abortion. At the 8th week my SO's gynecologist made an offhand remark not to get attached just yet, because we were still within the window where that happens.
    - ktm5j 2mo ago
      What does that matter? You're the one making the decision, not nature. Personally I would give anything to be able to have a child, so honestly I don't understand why anyone would want to terminate a pregnancy. I'm willing to admit that people's lives are complicated and it's not my place to make that decision for others, but we shouldn't help people hide from what they're doing.
  - throw-qqqqq 2mo ago
    I don’t think any woman who seeks an abortion, is unaware that it will kill the foetus. Having to listen to the heartbeat seems performative IMO. The heartbeat develops in weeks 5-6 and can be heard from around week 10. You can have a legal abortion in Italy until 90 days/~13 weeks. AFAIK it’s 14 weeks in France and Spain, 18 weeks in Denmark and Sweden, 22 in NL etc. just for some context.
    - ktm5j 2mo ago
      I think you're over estimating how self-aware a lot of people are.
      - throw-qqqqq 2mo ago
        I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. Self-aware with regards to what? Can you please elaborate?
        ktm5j 2mo ago
        Thinking about what they're doing and what those things mean.. some people just do what they want without putting a lot of thought into anything. We shouldn't make it easy for that type of person to hide from what they're doing.
- lelanthran 2mo ago
  [dead]
  - munk-a 2mo ago
    It's torture because abortion is never a trivial decision to make - by the time a person has decided to get an abortion and not become a parent we should respect their wishes. If a decision has been made there's no reason to cause pointless emotional grief before executing the operation.
    - drdaeman 2mo ago
      It is mainly so because of lack of education and emotional manipulation into mixing up human biology and human personhood. Heartbeat doesn’t make a person. It’s not even a requirement to be a person (people with continuous-flow artificial hearts lack it). The first specks of personhood appear a lot later in the process. A normal sane reaction is “yeah, there’s already a working cardiovascular system, better stop it before the organism develops even further.” This said, it’s an obviously pointless and harmful delay. There is no reason to check a heartbeat of a fetus if a mother decides she doesn’t want to carry it.
  - onethought 2mo ago
    Just want to point out, it’s polarising because it’s a wedge issues that divides voting blocks neatly, and nothing to do with it being The Issue that it is. More people die from obesity, cars, flu, preventable illness, etc. But we discuss endless this one issue… it’s for political science reasons not humanity/moral/etc reasons.
    - chpatrick 2mo ago
      It's different from those other cases because it's like getting in a car accident and other people saying you can't get treatment because it's against their religious values, or saying you're not allowed to lose weight because they don't like it.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
setopt 2mo ago
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. The explanation sounds very reasonable.
- munk-a 2mo ago
  It's an unreasonable argument because the people who treat medication like candy are far less common than the people who are restricted from seeking medical assistance due to repressive family situations. In Italy these services are thankfully not restricted in the same way they are in, say, America - but there are still plenty of life situations (like suffering SA from a family member) where shame, social pressures and threats can cause the regular medical system to be hard to access. That is a far more reasonable scenario than "I just love popping abortion pills!"
  - setopt 2mo ago
    No one claimed that people just "love popping abortion pills". At least my reading of their comment is that these pills are considered dangerous to take alone in your bedroom, without monitoring and follow-up by health professionals, and are therefore expected by the health system to be used in a hospital setting. That sounded reasonable to me.
    - munk-a 2mo ago
      The comment above the comment above mine said: > Abortion pills are not candies. That statement is unnecessary unless you believe that some people treat them as candies (not literally but take them casually and without thought). All medication is dangerous in excess - OTC painkillers often have absolutely disastrous OD effects with ibuprofen causing major stomache problems if abused in moderation or heart/kidney problems if abused more seriously.
lokar 2mo ago
There is ample evidence that video appointments followed by pills through the mail are safe and effective with very low rates of complications that can be addressed in a local ER if needed.
bragr 2mo ago
>There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. Not really true. They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. They're evaluating packaging and instructions for possible OTC sale in the the future: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2847537 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...
- toomuchtodo 2mo ago
  https://www.plancpills.org/ https://www.plancpills.org/ https://www.plancpills.org/guide-how-to-get-abortion-pills https://www.plancpills.org/guide-how-to-get-abortion-pills (US centric)
- lelanthran 2mo ago
  > They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. In that case I fully support the organisations involved to campaign to make abortion pills OTC legal. That does not mean that I support them skirting the law as it is now.

by eur0pa 2mo ago

mistrial9 2mo ago

in this part of the world, Mexico is known for public pharmacies that sell wildly-strong drugs of different kinds easily.. I doubt there are any websites that list what you can actually get if you walk in with cash

chpatrick 2mo ago

In Hungary abortion is technically legal but only surgically, and the public health system is mental torture including being forced to listen to the heartbeat of the fetus (thanks to our local fascist party). Women on Web is a million times more humane. It's not like anyone thinks "oh I'm pregnant I'll just pop a pill and it's solved".

ktm5j 2mo ago
[flagged]
- Woshiwuja 2mo ago
  [dead]
- Forgeties79 2mo ago
  > but I also think that it's a good idea to know what you're doing Why do so many people say this about women and their bodies? You seriously think the vast majority of women considering an abortion haven’t given it much thought? Should they all have to face more obstructions and guilt trips and patronizing lectures because a handful maybe don’t? It’s ridiculous. As for the “heartbeat” standard, I’m not getting in to it, suffice to say that should not be a bar here for deciding a woman’s rights. > I stand by this comment, downvote all you like folks. I wasn’t going to until this part of your comment.
  - true_religion 2mo ago
    They are just applying the same logic behind all prescription medication to abortion pills. To this day, despite having taken them for the past 30 years, I still require a new prescription for Adderall because society deemed the addiction risk too high to avoid inserting a doctor into the equation every 30 days. Abortifacients can cause the death of the person taking them. That’s something no one wants. Can some people manage the risks of prescription medication on their own? Yes, but like with Adderall, society tends to lean towards caution and considers a doctor’s visit to be morally neutral as doctors aren’t expected to moralize and guilt but perform a medical service. Personally, I think a doctor who guilts someone over medication should have their license revoked. There’s a time and place for such feelings but medical interventions are life and death.
    - Forgeties79 2mo ago
      He is talking about abortion writ large, not the relative risk of a specific medication. He’s even making an appeal to the “heart beat rule.”
      - true_religion 2mo ago
        When writing my comment, I did think to myself that the commenter might be biased, but it was borderline. So I deliberately chose to steel-man the argument. They are of course free to destroy their credibility and end civil discussion, but I didn't want to do it for them.
        Forgeties79 2mo ago
        > So I deliberately chose to steel-man the argument. Please don’t do that. This isn’t a debate team sparring session.
        true_religion 2mo ago
        I was under the impression that on HN you were obligated to assume the best possible argument, instead of the worst. Am I wrong?
- Tade0 2mo ago
  Friendly reminder that at the 6th week, when the heartbeat is detectable, the body is still undecided whether it will keep the fetus. It's not an indicator of anything - just something we're emotionally attached to as humans. 20-25% otherwise healthy pregnancies end spontaneously before the 12th week and it's a mechanism used in non-surgical abortion. At the 8th week my SO's gynecologist made an offhand remark not to get attached just yet, because we were still within the window where that happens.
  - ktm5j 2mo ago
    What does that matter? You're the one making the decision, not nature. Personally I would give anything to be able to have a child, so honestly I don't understand why anyone would want to terminate a pregnancy. I'm willing to admit that people's lives are complicated and it's not my place to make that decision for others, but we shouldn't help people hide from what they're doing.
- throw-qqqqq 2mo ago
  I don’t think any woman who seeks an abortion, is unaware that it will kill the foetus. Having to listen to the heartbeat seems performative IMO. The heartbeat develops in weeks 5-6 and can be heard from around week 10. You can have a legal abortion in Italy until 90 days/~13 weeks. AFAIK it’s 14 weeks in France and Spain, 18 weeks in Denmark and Sweden, 22 in NL etc. just for some context.
  - ktm5j 2mo ago
    I think you're over estimating how self-aware a lot of people are.
    - throw-qqqqq 2mo ago
      I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. Self-aware with regards to what? Can you please elaborate?
      - ktm5j 2mo ago
        Thinking about what they're doing and what those things mean.. some people just do what they want without putting a lot of thought into anything. We shouldn't make it easy for that type of person to hide from what they're doing.
lelanthran 2mo ago
[dead]
- munk-a 2mo ago
  It's torture because abortion is never a trivial decision to make - by the time a person has decided to get an abortion and not become a parent we should respect their wishes. If a decision has been made there's no reason to cause pointless emotional grief before executing the operation.
  - drdaeman 2mo ago
    It is mainly so because of lack of education and emotional manipulation into mixing up human biology and human personhood. Heartbeat doesn’t make a person. It’s not even a requirement to be a person (people with continuous-flow artificial hearts lack it). The first specks of personhood appear a lot later in the process. A normal sane reaction is “yeah, there’s already a working cardiovascular system, better stop it before the organism develops even further.” This said, it’s an obviously pointless and harmful delay. There is no reason to check a heartbeat of a fetus if a mother decides she doesn’t want to carry it.
- onethought 2mo ago
  Just want to point out, it’s polarising because it’s a wedge issues that divides voting blocks neatly, and nothing to do with it being The Issue that it is. More people die from obesity, cars, flu, preventable illness, etc. But we discuss endless this one issue… it’s for political science reasons not humanity/moral/etc reasons.
  - chpatrick 2mo ago
    It's different from those other cases because it's like getting in a car accident and other people saying you can't get treatment because it's against their religious values, or saying you're not allowed to lose weight because they don't like it.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]

setopt 2mo ago

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. The explanation sounds very reasonable.

munk-a 2mo ago
It's an unreasonable argument because the people who treat medication like candy are far less common than the people who are restricted from seeking medical assistance due to repressive family situations. In Italy these services are thankfully not restricted in the same way they are in, say, America - but there are still plenty of life situations (like suffering SA from a family member) where shame, social pressures and threats can cause the regular medical system to be hard to access. That is a far more reasonable scenario than "I just love popping abortion pills!"
- setopt 2mo ago
  No one claimed that people just "love popping abortion pills". At least my reading of their comment is that these pills are considered dangerous to take alone in your bedroom, without monitoring and follow-up by health professionals, and are therefore expected by the health system to be used in a hospital setting. That sounded reasonable to me.
  - munk-a 2mo ago
    The comment above the comment above mine said: > Abortion pills are not candies. That statement is unnecessary unless you believe that some people treat them as candies (not literally but take them casually and without thought). All medication is dangerous in excess - OTC painkillers often have absolutely disastrous OD effects with ibuprofen causing major stomache problems if abused in moderation or heart/kidney problems if abused more seriously.

lokar 2mo ago

There is ample evidence that video appointments followed by pills through the mail are safe and effective with very low rates of complications that can be addressed in a local ER if needed.

bragr 2mo ago

>There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. Not really true. They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. They're evaluating packaging and instructions for possible OTC sale in the the future: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2847537 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

toomuchtodo 2mo ago
https://www.plancpills.org/ https://www.plancpills.org/ https://www.plancpills.org/guide-how-to-get-abortion-pills https://www.plancpills.org/guide-how-to-get-abortion-pills (US centric)
lelanthran 2mo ago
> They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. In that case I fully support the organisations involved to campaign to make abortion pills OTC legal. That does not mean that I support them skirting the law as it is now.