4 ms·

The erosion of civil rights in the US right now is shocking. The notion that city councillors should be able to order the detention of a citizen is just bonkers

The erosion of civil rights in the US right now is shocking. The notion that city councillors should be able to order the detention of a citizen is just bonkers. I hope every one of these councilors is voted out and police need serious personal financial consequences and sanctions. Fundamentally the US has too many police forces, each of which is a law unto itself.

ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
The erosion of civil rights in the US right now is shocking. The notion that any citizen should be able to disrupt and hinder business meetings of city councillors is just bonkers. I hope every one of these citizens is thrown in jail and activist citizens need serious personal financial consequences and sanctions. Fundamentally the US has too many special interest groups, each of which is a law unto itself.
- angry_octet 3mo ago
  Is a public council meeting a private business meeting? Or in fact a forum for citizens to give input? Is a lone individual, or even a whole room, clapping a speech, disrupting? What law has the individual broken by clapping or speaking? Councillors do not make law by speaking. They should get a court order if someone is being persistently disruptive, not use bully boy police intimidation. Special interest groups do indeed have private police forces in the US, that routinely misuse the wide powers available. Really you need to mount a better argument.
  - JuniperMesos 3mo ago
    > Is a lone individual, or even a whole room, clapping a speech, disrupting? Yeah, if the presider of the meeting asks people not to do that in order to get through more comments. > What law has the individual broken by clapping or speaking? Councillors do not make law by speaking. They should get a court order if someone is being persistently disruptive, not use bully boy police intimidation. > Special interest groups do indeed have private police forces in the US, that routinely misuse the wide powers available. The people who dragged him out looked like the normal town police enforcing order at a public meeting in a normal way. This is the most basic function of police - or equivalently, anyone who does this job is doing policing, regardless of whether they're a uniformed official or just the physically biggest three guys in town.
    - angry_octet 3mo ago
      You are confusing 'enforcing order' with anti democratic supression of speech. A few claps is not disorderly behaviour. There is no conceivable way that the clapping delayed proceedings; in fact, the supression of speech activities took far more time.
cowboylowrez 3mo ago
I think its ok to ask the disrupter to leave and if he refuses, just trespass him. I would hold this opinion independently of the contents of the meeting transcripts. From reading this page, the disrupter should probably be charged with trespassing as I didn't get a sense of his willingness to leave the meeting.
- angry_octet 3mo ago
  He wasn't being disruptive, and councillors can't redefine behaviour like mild clapping as disruptive. Threatening with trespass shouldn't be an option against someone exercising their rights as a citizen and resident unless directed by a court order. It simply isn't open to the police to lay hands on a citizen for something that isn't an offence. You should really watch the video.
- redbluered 3mo ago
  Open meeting laws say people are welcome to be there. Constitution protects polite free speech, unambiguously.
  - nitwit005 3mo ago
    Not talking specifically to this case, but if you're loud and disruptive, you can prevent others from exercising their free speech. The meetings do need some rules.
- JuniperMesos 3mo ago
  Looks like this is basically what happened - the linked video footage https://x.com/JasonBassler1/status/2081182966030745720 https://x.com/JasonBassler1/status/2081182966030745720 shows the guy being asked to leave the meeting by the cops, he refuses to leave and tells them "drag me out", the cops proceed to drag him out. The video footage doesn't show how disruptive he was being; but I find it reasonable that he was clapping in a way that the the person running the public comment meeting had specifically asked people not to do in the name of expediently getting to as many comments as possible. This is the kind of situation that I think would come up in basically any human society, even some maximally-anarchist society without the institution of police. If you're having a public meeting to decide on some policy, you need someone to be in charge of the procedural rules of that meeting; if someone doesn't like something about the meeting and is doing something that arguably breaks the procedural rules, you need someone to adjudicate this and decide whether or not to compel them to leave. If someone is compelled to leave a meeting, and they resist, you need someone who will physically force them to.

ButlerianJihad 3mo ago

The erosion of civil rights in the US right now is shocking. The notion that any citizen should be able to disrupt and hinder business meetings of city councillors is just bonkers. I hope every one of these citizens is thrown in jail and activist citizens need serious personal financial consequences and sanctions. Fundamentally the US has too many special interest groups, each of which is a law unto itself.

angry_octet 3mo ago
Is a public council meeting a private business meeting? Or in fact a forum for citizens to give input? Is a lone individual, or even a whole room, clapping a speech, disrupting? What law has the individual broken by clapping or speaking? Councillors do not make law by speaking. They should get a court order if someone is being persistently disruptive, not use bully boy police intimidation. Special interest groups do indeed have private police forces in the US, that routinely misuse the wide powers available. Really you need to mount a better argument.
- JuniperMesos 3mo ago
  > Is a lone individual, or even a whole room, clapping a speech, disrupting? Yeah, if the presider of the meeting asks people not to do that in order to get through more comments. > What law has the individual broken by clapping or speaking? Councillors do not make law by speaking. They should get a court order if someone is being persistently disruptive, not use bully boy police intimidation. > Special interest groups do indeed have private police forces in the US, that routinely misuse the wide powers available. The people who dragged him out looked like the normal town police enforcing order at a public meeting in a normal way. This is the most basic function of police - or equivalently, anyone who does this job is doing policing, regardless of whether they're a uniformed official or just the physically biggest three guys in town.
  - angry_octet 3mo ago
    You are confusing 'enforcing order' with anti democratic supression of speech. A few claps is not disorderly behaviour. There is no conceivable way that the clapping delayed proceedings; in fact, the supression of speech activities took far more time.

cowboylowrez 3mo ago

I think its ok to ask the disrupter to leave and if he refuses, just trespass him. I would hold this opinion independently of the contents of the meeting transcripts. From reading this page, the disrupter should probably be charged with trespassing as I didn't get a sense of his willingness to leave the meeting.

angry_octet 3mo ago
He wasn't being disruptive, and councillors can't redefine behaviour like mild clapping as disruptive. Threatening with trespass shouldn't be an option against someone exercising their rights as a citizen and resident unless directed by a court order. It simply isn't open to the police to lay hands on a citizen for something that isn't an offence. You should really watch the video.
redbluered 3mo ago
Open meeting laws say people are welcome to be there. Constitution protects polite free speech, unambiguously.
- nitwit005 3mo ago
  Not talking specifically to this case, but if you're loud and disruptive, you can prevent others from exercising their free speech. The meetings do need some rules.
JuniperMesos 3mo ago
Looks like this is basically what happened - the linked video footage https://x.com/JasonBassler1/status/2081182966030745720 https://x.com/JasonBassler1/status/2081182966030745720 shows the guy being asked to leave the meeting by the cops, he refuses to leave and tells them "drag me out", the cops proceed to drag him out. The video footage doesn't show how disruptive he was being; but I find it reasonable that he was clapping in a way that the the person running the public comment meeting had specifically asked people not to do in the name of expediently getting to as many comments as possible. This is the kind of situation that I think would come up in basically any human society, even some maximally-anarchist society without the institution of police. If you're having a public meeting to decide on some policy, you need someone to be in charge of the procedural rules of that meeting; if someone doesn't like something about the meeting and is doing something that arguably breaks the procedural rules, you need someone to adjudicate this and decide whether or not to compel them to leave. If someone is compelled to leave a meeting, and they resist, you need someone who will physically force them to.