3 ms·

Here is a good list of 'fuel per seat (in mpg)' numbers for various airplane configurations and flight durations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_

Here is a good list of 'fuel per seat (in mpg)' numbers for various airplane configurations and flight durations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Example_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Examp... The total average across the industry in 2018 was between 67 and 81 mpg. Modern planes are in the 100-120mpg range.

elil17 3mo ago
The issue is that we are enabling people to travel long distances too cheaply.
- 9cb14c1ec0 3mo ago
  Yes, let's make things more expensive, cause we experts know best. That poor guy that needs to attend a family funeral, he's a loser that should stay home. Inflation for the Win!
  - bestouff 3mo ago
    Does he really "need" it though ? For thousands of years people didn't travel shi fast to attend funerals (they only did it locally), where they less happy about it ?
  - elil17 3mo ago
    Ideally making polluting activities more expensive would go hand in hand with reducing inequality - so people could still afford needs like going to a funeral. A great example of this is Canada's Carbon Fee & Dividend system.
- dudefeliciano 3mo ago
  What about short distances? Why is it cheaper to fly Berlin-Stuttgart than to take a train? it makes absoutely no sense.
  - londons_explore 3mo ago
    Trains are expensive because the track is 99.9% empty. If you could fill a train track as much as a road is filled, it would be very cheap
    - dredmorbius 3mo ago
      Track utilisation is limited by a number of factors, including headways, much of which is governed by stopping distance. I believe a general minimum practical headway allows about 10--12 trainsets per hour on a given track. At 400 passengers/trainset, that's roughly 4,000 to 4,800 passengers/hour, per track. That compares with about 1,500 vehicles/hour per highway lane, or about 2,550 passengers/hour at the U.S. average of 1.7 passengers/vehicle. I've seen some suggestion that headways could be reduced to 3--4 minutes, or 15--20 trainsets/hour. I know that some urban rapid transit systems (e.g., BART in San Francisco) achieve this, but only on a small section of the system (Colma to Oakland, transiting downtown SF, IIRC). Train speeds there peak at 70 MPH, and I believe are much slower for most of this portion of track.
      - londons_explore 3mo ago
        Some urban subways have 30 second headways.
        dredmorbius 3mo ago
        And, I suspect, low speeds, as braking distance increases with the square of speed. The New York subway has a top speed of 55 mph (88 kmh), but an average speed of 17.8 mph (28 kmh). I'm not sure what downtown intra-station peaks are, but suspect they're low on shorter sections. The London Underground is similar, with an average of 33 kmh (20 mph), max ~100 kmh (60 mph). This varies considerably by lines, the Bakerloo stock peaks at 45 mph; the Circle line averages just 24 kmh (15 mph). Chicago's 'L' is similar to NYC: max 55 mph, average ~20--25 mph.[3] Note that averages include acceleration, deceleration, and dwell times (standing still at stations). But central portions of subways probably achieve low headways with relatively low peak speeds for congested track segments. Notes: ________________________________ 1. <https://parkingday.org/how-fast-do-new-york-subway-trains-travel/ https://parkingday.org/how-fast-do-new-york-subway-trains-tr...> 2. <https://tubenotifications.co.uk/insights/how-fast-is-the-tube https://tubenotifications.co.uk/insights/how-fast-is-the-tub...> 3. <https://parkingday.org/how-fast-does-the-subway-go-in-chicago/ https://parkingday.org/how-fast-does-the-subway-go-in-chicag...>
- bluebarbet 3mo ago
  And above all too quickly. Per kilometer, flying is roughly as polluting as driving, but nobody would think to drive across a continent to go to the beach.
  - brainwad 3mo ago
    Yes they would. That's why we get massive queues for alpine crossings during European holidays – German and Dutch tourists trying to get to the beaches in Italy.
  - ortusdux 3mo ago
    The average average car gets 28MPG in the US, so flying is currently 2-3 times more efficient per mile.
dudefeliciano 3mo ago
and according to the article the last record was 200k planes per day on june 29 2025, while july 23rd had more than 280k - so while efficiency may be going up (how many of those 280k planes are in the modern 100-120mpg range?) total flights are as well. Result: total emissions are steadily increasing.

elil17 3mo ago

The issue is that we are enabling people to travel long distances too cheaply.

9cb14c1ec0 3mo ago
Yes, let's make things more expensive, cause we experts know best. That poor guy that needs to attend a family funeral, he's a loser that should stay home. Inflation for the Win!
- bestouff 3mo ago
  Does he really "need" it though ? For thousands of years people didn't travel shi fast to attend funerals (they only did it locally), where they less happy about it ?
- elil17 3mo ago
  Ideally making polluting activities more expensive would go hand in hand with reducing inequality - so people could still afford needs like going to a funeral. A great example of this is Canada's Carbon Fee & Dividend system.
dudefeliciano 3mo ago
What about short distances? Why is it cheaper to fly Berlin-Stuttgart than to take a train? it makes absoutely no sense.
- londons_explore 3mo ago
  Trains are expensive because the track is 99.9% empty. If you could fill a train track as much as a road is filled, it would be very cheap
  - dredmorbius 3mo ago
    Track utilisation is limited by a number of factors, including headways, much of which is governed by stopping distance. I believe a general minimum practical headway allows about 10--12 trainsets per hour on a given track. At 400 passengers/trainset, that's roughly 4,000 to 4,800 passengers/hour, per track. That compares with about 1,500 vehicles/hour per highway lane, or about 2,550 passengers/hour at the U.S. average of 1.7 passengers/vehicle. I've seen some suggestion that headways could be reduced to 3--4 minutes, or 15--20 trainsets/hour. I know that some urban rapid transit systems (e.g., BART in San Francisco) achieve this, but only on a small section of the system (Colma to Oakland, transiting downtown SF, IIRC). Train speeds there peak at 70 MPH, and I believe are much slower for most of this portion of track.
    - londons_explore 3mo ago
      Some urban subways have 30 second headways.
      - dredmorbius 3mo ago
        And, I suspect, low speeds, as braking distance increases with the square of speed. The New York subway has a top speed of 55 mph (88 kmh), but an average speed of 17.8 mph (28 kmh). I'm not sure what downtown intra-station peaks are, but suspect they're low on shorter sections. The London Underground is similar, with an average of 33 kmh (20 mph), max ~100 kmh (60 mph). This varies considerably by lines, the Bakerloo stock peaks at 45 mph; the Circle line averages just 24 kmh (15 mph). Chicago's 'L' is similar to NYC: max 55 mph, average ~20--25 mph.[3] Note that averages include acceleration, deceleration, and dwell times (standing still at stations). But central portions of subways probably achieve low headways with relatively low peak speeds for congested track segments. Notes: ________________________________ 1. <https://parkingday.org/how-fast-do-new-york-subway-trains-travel/ https://parkingday.org/how-fast-do-new-york-subway-trains-tr...> 2. <https://tubenotifications.co.uk/insights/how-fast-is-the-tube https://tubenotifications.co.uk/insights/how-fast-is-the-tub...> 3. <https://parkingday.org/how-fast-does-the-subway-go-in-chicago/ https://parkingday.org/how-fast-does-the-subway-go-in-chicag...>
bluebarbet 3mo ago
And above all too quickly. Per kilometer, flying is roughly as polluting as driving, but nobody would think to drive across a continent to go to the beach.
- brainwad 3mo ago
  Yes they would. That's why we get massive queues for alpine crossings during European holidays – German and Dutch tourists trying to get to the beaches in Italy.
- ortusdux 3mo ago
  The average average car gets 28MPG in the US, so flying is currently 2-3 times more efficient per mile.

dudefeliciano 3mo ago

and according to the article the last record was 200k planes per day on june 29 2025, while july 23rd had more than 280k - so while efficiency may be going up (how many of those 280k planes are in the modern 100-120mpg range?) total flights are as well. Result: total emissions are steadily increasing.