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Electrical is inadequate power delivery-wise and requires completely different cookware to the point that it's a different cuisine. For example to replicate a

by lstodd 2mo ago

Electrical is inadequate power delivery-wise and requires completely different cookware to the point that it's a different cuisine. For example to replicate a gas burner you have to have above 15KW continious power. Good luck wiring that into your apartment, or feeding this with local solar. Or even finding an induction stovetop that won't melt its insides in a year or two at a measly 5KW.

klausa 2mo ago
I can personally guarantee you that the average Japanese コンロ does not have a heat output that would require 15kW of power to match using IH. And that’s before we get into the safety features of modern ones that bring that limit even lower.
qurren 2mo ago
https://www.impulselabs.com/ https://www.impulselabs.com/ achieves this by storing energy in a battery. 120V15A in to charge, 10kW out for short durations. I don't have one, but it's an interesting concept. That said, I don't know what's better, a massive lithium battery in the kitchen that can be set into thermal runaway, or a gas line. But also, most Japanese styles of cooking doesn't need those levels of power anyway. 4-5kW induction hobs running on a proper 240V outlet or whatever the Japanese industrial equivalent is are usually plenty for most professional cooking.
- account42 2mo ago
  I like how the video shows that you can detach the knob to clean the now flat surface ... instead of just putting the knobs somewhere other than the flat surface where food is likely to spill.
  - klausa 2mo ago
    This is… literally the only surface that stoves in this form factor have?
    - account42 2mo ago
      This form factor is installed by literally cutting a whole into a flat surface, nothing limits you to only one hole.
      - klausa 2mo ago
        I genuinely can’t tell - you’re aware that this is a standardized form factor, and they didn’t invent this just for this particular device, right?
        account42 2mo ago
        Why do you think it's surprising when people actually expect high end devices to be designed for usability?
      - xp84 2mo ago
        I don't think anybody wants to cut a separate hole in their countertop for controls when everyone already has one big rectangular hole where a cooktop goes.
        account42 2mo ago
        Then you think wrong. But the best place to cut another hole would be the top front cover, which can't be used for anything else anyway because the stove is behind it.
      - qurren 2mo ago
        If you're in an American home, you typically have one of the following 4 setups for a stove: (A) 36" range (B) 30" range (C) 36" countertop cutout (D) 30" countertop cutout. That's about >95% of US homes. This company appears to be catering to markets (C) and (D), and would be a drop-in replacement for whatever other stovetop they currently have. Most likely it can be a DIY self-install with the exception of capping a prior gas line. If you require the user to cut new holes in their fancy granite for your custom knobs, they lose the option of going back if they don't like it. There are some extremely-high end cooktops (e.g. Gaggenau) do require the additional cutouts for controls, but they have already proven their brand with high-end users so they can pull that off. A startup can't.
UltraSane 2mo ago
Most heat from gas burners is wasted heating the room. Induction is vastly more efficient.
perching_aix 2mo ago
> For example to replicate a gas burner you have to have above 15KW continious power. Where are you getting this from? 15K BTU sure, but 15K watts? Do you mean the entire stove?
- lstodd 2mo ago
  If I turn my old gorenje all out on four burners it'll output the likes of maybe 30kW give or take. The largest burner is I think about 15KW on full throttle and that does only acceptable wok or very smoky steak on cast iron ribbed pan. For a couple of years I had nothing but a 3.7kW inductions while I lived elsewhere. Two of them melted and warped from the heat to the point of breaking the top glass and forget about wok or steaks. If all you cook is ramen or oatmeal, induction is fine, yes.
  - perching_aix 2mo ago
    OK, Gorenje, gas stove, wok use: https://international.gorenje.com/products/cooking-and-baking/hobs/HOB-BG6FE-G0B-GW6D42CLB-GOR/p/000000000000737665 https://international.gorenje.com/products/cooking-and-bakin... The largest burner has an output of 3.5 kW (12K BTU). Did a general pass before sending my previous comment anyhow, found much the same across the board. What you say reliably checks out with the unit corrected to BTU on the gas side, but not otherwise. Are you sure you're not mixing BTU and watts? > If all you cook is ramen or oatmeal, induction is fine, yes. No, I cook full on meals. Stews, soups, what have you. Power never even remotely came up as a concern. Quite the contrary in fact. I indeed never used a wok or cooked any steaks though, and probably never will either, so I can't say much about that stuff.
    - lstodd 2mo ago
      What I have is from 2008 or so, I can't even find the exact model. I guess it's now politically incorrect to even list it. Plus side: works as new, even the original thermal pair shutoffs were never swapped and that's basically the only thing that fails in them. Soups i can see. Stews.. unless we completely misunderstand each other they're better done in the stove, inside. Not to mention baking some bread. With which an induction top will not help either. To be honest, baking and stewing imo depend more on thermal mass that brings very stable temperature, for which even gas ovens are meh, you're better off with true wood-fueled brick stove, or the result is not even close. One can maybe make an electrically-heated brick stove, but for some reason I haven't seen one. Maybe it's because it'll be slow as hell to heat up. And no authentic crunchy charcoal in your fresh pizza.
ses1984 2mo ago
Something doesn’t make sense here because an electric kettle operating at 120v at less than 10 amps will boil water much faster than the large burner on my stove.
- xp84 2mo ago
  That's kind of a special case, one couldn't pick a situation more tuned to the strengths of electric. The big burner on the stove heats the air up a ton, including a huge amount of heat going around the pot, straight up around the edges. (Add more inefficiency if the pot is uncovered). Whereas the electric element in the kettle is inside there conducting almost all its heat into the water and the insulated kettle is great at keeping the heat in (my kettle doesn't really get all that hot on the outside). Stir-frying in a wok, for instance, will not be nearly as lopsided a win, but it will still be more efficient.
kalleboo 2mo ago
Gas has more raw power but it's extremely inefficient because most of it just escapes into the room, whereas with induction it all goes into the cookware. Our induction stove boils water way faster than our gas one did, and the gas one on full blast melted and ruined the handle on the pot since so much of the heat escapes around the sides. Technology Connections on YouTube has done videos on the topic, comparing electric to gas, showing that even old-school resistive electric is faster than gas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUywI8YGy0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUywI8YGy0Y
- pseudosavant 2mo ago
  Agreed. My current electric cooktop boils water faster than any gas cooktop I've ever had, and it isn't even induction. It produces so much less excess heat into the kitchen too. You can't stop the heat instantly like you can with gas, but in practice that has been a complete non-issue. Definitely my favorite cooktop.
numpad0 2mo ago
Most Japanese household stoves top out at 5kW per burner. IH stoves are limited to 3kW per burner for 5.8kW combined by radio regulations. 15kW is a figure for combined output or for restaurant burners. It's apparently not great but not substantially worse either, and it's not like 5kW output of gas stoves are plenty for serious cooking in the first place so it's okay.
com2kid 2mo ago
50% of a gas burner's power goes into the air. Every test done comparing residential gas vs induction burners has shown induction burners heat up pots and pans faster than gas. Induction puts ~98% of the energy right into your pan. (Based on how losses are measured, some say 90%, whatever, it is way more than 50%!) > Electrical is inadequate power delivery-wise and requires completely different cookware to the point that it's a different cuisine. There are Chinese induction wok cooktops that have a curved bottom so a wok fits in and can be heated up all around. Sadly the ones sold here in the states are just 120v, really wish I could get my kitchen stove equipped with one of those running at full power. Though honestly even 240v is limiting.

by lstodd 2mo ago

klausa 2mo ago

I can personally guarantee you that the average Japanese コンロ does not have a heat output that would require 15kW of power to match using IH. And that’s before we get into the safety features of modern ones that bring that limit even lower.

qurren 2mo ago

https://www.impulselabs.com/ https://www.impulselabs.com/ achieves this by storing energy in a battery. 120V15A in to charge, 10kW out for short durations. I don't have one, but it's an interesting concept. That said, I don't know what's better, a massive lithium battery in the kitchen that can be set into thermal runaway, or a gas line. But also, most Japanese styles of cooking doesn't need those levels of power anyway. 4-5kW induction hobs running on a proper 240V outlet or whatever the Japanese industrial equivalent is are usually plenty for most professional cooking.

account42 2mo ago
I like how the video shows that you can detach the knob to clean the now flat surface ... instead of just putting the knobs somewhere other than the flat surface where food is likely to spill.
- klausa 2mo ago
  This is… literally the only surface that stoves in this form factor have?
  - account42 2mo ago
    This form factor is installed by literally cutting a whole into a flat surface, nothing limits you to only one hole.
    - klausa 2mo ago
      I genuinely can’t tell - you’re aware that this is a standardized form factor, and they didn’t invent this just for this particular device, right?
      - account42 2mo ago
        Why do you think it's surprising when people actually expect high end devices to be designed for usability?
    - xp84 2mo ago
      I don't think anybody wants to cut a separate hole in their countertop for controls when everyone already has one big rectangular hole where a cooktop goes.
      - account42 2mo ago
        Then you think wrong. But the best place to cut another hole would be the top front cover, which can't be used for anything else anyway because the stove is behind it.
    - qurren 2mo ago
      If you're in an American home, you typically have one of the following 4 setups for a stove: (A) 36" range (B) 30" range (C) 36" countertop cutout (D) 30" countertop cutout. That's about >95% of US homes. This company appears to be catering to markets (C) and (D), and would be a drop-in replacement for whatever other stovetop they currently have. Most likely it can be a DIY self-install with the exception of capping a prior gas line. If you require the user to cut new holes in their fancy granite for your custom knobs, they lose the option of going back if they don't like it. There are some extremely-high end cooktops (e.g. Gaggenau) do require the additional cutouts for controls, but they have already proven their brand with high-end users so they can pull that off. A startup can't.

UltraSane 2mo ago

Most heat from gas burners is wasted heating the room. Induction is vastly more efficient.

perching_aix 2mo ago

> For example to replicate a gas burner you have to have above 15KW continious power. Where are you getting this from? 15K BTU sure, but 15K watts? Do you mean the entire stove?

lstodd 2mo ago
If I turn my old gorenje all out on four burners it'll output the likes of maybe 30kW give or take. The largest burner is I think about 15KW on full throttle and that does only acceptable wok or very smoky steak on cast iron ribbed pan. For a couple of years I had nothing but a 3.7kW inductions while I lived elsewhere. Two of them melted and warped from the heat to the point of breaking the top glass and forget about wok or steaks. If all you cook is ramen or oatmeal, induction is fine, yes.
- perching_aix 2mo ago
  OK, Gorenje, gas stove, wok use: https://international.gorenje.com/products/cooking-and-baking/hobs/HOB-BG6FE-G0B-GW6D42CLB-GOR/p/000000000000737665 https://international.gorenje.com/products/cooking-and-bakin... The largest burner has an output of 3.5 kW (12K BTU). Did a general pass before sending my previous comment anyhow, found much the same across the board. What you say reliably checks out with the unit corrected to BTU on the gas side, but not otherwise. Are you sure you're not mixing BTU and watts? > If all you cook is ramen or oatmeal, induction is fine, yes. No, I cook full on meals. Stews, soups, what have you. Power never even remotely came up as a concern. Quite the contrary in fact. I indeed never used a wok or cooked any steaks though, and probably never will either, so I can't say much about that stuff.
  - lstodd 2mo ago
    What I have is from 2008 or so, I can't even find the exact model. I guess it's now politically incorrect to even list it. Plus side: works as new, even the original thermal pair shutoffs were never swapped and that's basically the only thing that fails in them. Soups i can see. Stews.. unless we completely misunderstand each other they're better done in the stove, inside. Not to mention baking some bread. With which an induction top will not help either. To be honest, baking and stewing imo depend more on thermal mass that brings very stable temperature, for which even gas ovens are meh, you're better off with true wood-fueled brick stove, or the result is not even close. One can maybe make an electrically-heated brick stove, but for some reason I haven't seen one. Maybe it's because it'll be slow as hell to heat up. And no authentic crunchy charcoal in your fresh pizza.

ses1984 2mo ago

Something doesn’t make sense here because an electric kettle operating at 120v at less than 10 amps will boil water much faster than the large burner on my stove.

xp84 2mo ago
That's kind of a special case, one couldn't pick a situation more tuned to the strengths of electric. The big burner on the stove heats the air up a ton, including a huge amount of heat going around the pot, straight up around the edges. (Add more inefficiency if the pot is uncovered). Whereas the electric element in the kettle is inside there conducting almost all its heat into the water and the insulated kettle is great at keeping the heat in (my kettle doesn't really get all that hot on the outside). Stir-frying in a wok, for instance, will not be nearly as lopsided a win, but it will still be more efficient.

kalleboo 2mo ago

Gas has more raw power but it's extremely inefficient because most of it just escapes into the room, whereas with induction it all goes into the cookware. Our induction stove boils water way faster than our gas one did, and the gas one on full blast melted and ruined the handle on the pot since so much of the heat escapes around the sides. Technology Connections on YouTube has done videos on the topic, comparing electric to gas, showing that even old-school resistive electric is faster than gas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUywI8YGy0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUywI8YGy0Y

pseudosavant 2mo ago
Agreed. My current electric cooktop boils water faster than any gas cooktop I've ever had, and it isn't even induction. It produces so much less excess heat into the kitchen too. You can't stop the heat instantly like you can with gas, but in practice that has been a complete non-issue. Definitely my favorite cooktop.

numpad0 2mo ago

Most Japanese household stoves top out at 5kW per burner. IH stoves are limited to 3kW per burner for 5.8kW combined by radio regulations. 15kW is a figure for combined output or for restaurant burners. It's apparently not great but not substantially worse either, and it's not like 5kW output of gas stoves are plenty for serious cooking in the first place so it's okay.

com2kid 2mo ago

50% of a gas burner's power goes into the air. Every test done comparing residential gas vs induction burners has shown induction burners heat up pots and pans faster than gas. Induction puts ~98% of the energy right into your pan. (Based on how losses are measured, some say 90%, whatever, it is way more than 50%!) > Electrical is inadequate power delivery-wise and requires completely different cookware to the point that it's a different cuisine. There are Chinese induction wok cooktops that have a curved bottom so a wok fits in and can be heated up all around. Sadly the ones sold here in the states are just 120v, really wish I could get my kitchen stove equipped with one of those running at full power. Though honestly even 240v is limiting.