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> okay for DHH and other Westerners to find the Roma value system disgusting. The Nazis murdered about a million gypsies so “finding a whole value system disgu
by dash2 2mo ago
> okay for DHH and other Westerners to find the Roma value system disgusting.
The Nazis murdered about a million gypsies so “finding a whole value system disgusting” can lead to some quite dark places.
- xp84 2mo agoBy that logic, how can we even justify finding Nazi ideology disgusting? "Sure, a lot of Nazis committed a ton of heinous crimes, and their value system told them it was good and proper to do so, but some of them are probably nice people who didn't commit murder!" To be clear my point is that not all cultures are equally good - due to their different value systems. Pretending they are always leads to the most harmful, unfair, and cruel ones taking advantage of the most trusting ones. Again, nobody here is arguing for harming anyone, nor for taking any action at all towards those of that ancestry that aren't doing the crimes. But I'd be all for deporting those that do.
- evanelias 2mo agoIf some individuals are committing crimes, why isn't the normal criminal justice system the answer, instead of deportation? And deport them to where exactly, and on what justification? They've been in Europe for a thousand years and are effectively stateless.
- dash2 2mo agoI don't think most gypsies are stateless.
- evanelias 2mo agoI meant in the sense that Roma are an ethnicity lacking their own sovereign state, "stateless" as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation
- dash2 2mo agoOK. But then the answer to your initial question would be "deported to their home countries".
- evanelias 2mo agoWhich is where, exactly, for the people in question? i.e. what is the legal home country for most Roma in Denmark? Given folks like DHH have such strong opinions about this, I would expect they should be able to detail the specifics of the mass deportation plan they're proposing!
- dash2 2mo agoPresumably, if they are immigrants, then they have a passport and a legal home country. I agree with you that mass deportation (i.e. deportation of a whole group not based on individual guilt or innocence) is bad. Just saying that this particular argument isn't relevant.
- evanelias 2mo agoPardon my skepticism, but cursory web searching and LLM prompting is giving me responses like "a significant portion of the European Roma population faces high rates of statelessness or lacks basic civil documents", while citing real website articles with titles such as "Many Roma in Europe are stateless and live outside social protection". That aligns 100% with things I've read previously, but that said, I'm not terribly well-informed on the topic and maybe I'm entirely wrong here. Do you have any links/info that support what you're saying?
- dash2 2mo agoBeing literally stateless is not the same as not having a passport. (My father-in-law doesn't have one, but he's a perfectly respectable citizen!) Being in a foreign country without a passport is also not being stateless - it may well correspond to being an illegal immigrant, however. It is quite hard to be made stateless. You have to be born in a very unlucky place. All of this means that immigrants can be deported to their country of origin.
- dash2 2mo agoThe Nazis are defined by their ideology. Gypsies are an ethnicity; judging them all by the actions of some is unfair. That doesn't mean you can't ever criticize another culture. But it does seem obvious that crimes committed by gypsies, no matter how serious, pale compared to the past crimes committed against them.