4 ms·

China is very inward-looking, though. It's not really interested in world domination in the same sense that Europe was or even the USA was/is.

nativeit 2mo ago
China has been aggressively developing infrastructure and financial services all over Africa and the rest of Asia. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-106866 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-106866
- fnord77 2mo ago
  resource extraction stealth colonialism
  - d5lt5 2mo ago
    The alternative is western colonialism Africa experienced before, and bombing campaigns.
    - CaptWorld 2mo ago
      Western colonialism is better than eastern colonialism tho. Look at the Russian orgs in Africa.
      - marcus_holmes 2mo ago
        Better for whom? Certainly not the colonised...
        CaptWorld 2mo ago
        Yeah for the ones who get colonized, western ones were better than eastern ones. Japanese ones would've made Britishers look like kids when they were occupying eastern India.
        marcus_holmes 2mo ago
        You know the British invented the concentration camp in Africa, right? We're told a relatively benign version of our history. You kinda have to travel to the countries involved to get the real version.
        rmunn 2mo ago
        Even with all the downsides of being colonized by Britain, it was still far better than being colonized by Belgium. Heck, being colonized by pretty much anybody but Belgium was better than being colonized by Belgium. Read up on the Belgian Congo sometime: it was a parade of horrors. GP was making a relative comparison; pointing out that both were bad in absolute terms does not negate the point. -2 is still greater than -17.
        kajaktum 2mo ago
        Who cares who invented it first. Who did it best? Japans concentration camp was unholy abomination and it doesn’t get enough attention today
        edoceo 2mo ago
        How can you see the road not taken?
        CaptWorld 2mo ago
        You check existing conditions and extrapolate.
        amunozo 2mo ago
        You just put Russia and Japan as "Eastern"; they have nothing to do with each (and I would consider both as more Western than Eastern regarding imperial/colonial matters) other nor with China. China is a massive country that has always been massive and rich. Their style is more like the tribute systems they had before, as it is being observed in the BRI and other projects.
        2mo ago
      - subscribed 2mo ago
        Single counterexample for single counterexample: Belgium's Leopold - not sure if Western colonialism is so much better (and notice I didn't even bring up "western India")
        CaptWorld 2mo ago
        Not so much better but better in general compared to the middle eastern/eastern colonialism.. westerners have good competiton that the atrocities will be self corrected by itself but middle eastern/eastern colonies needed external western support like Korean war, hiroshima/nagasaki.. main example I can think of opposite is china under deng but there too deng had become relatively capitalist to fix the issues.
- marcus_holmes 2mo ago
  Yeah I saw this in Cambodia when I lived there. Sihanoukville had become a Chinese enclave almost completely. Different to the way that French colonialism worked, though. Less direct government, more influence of existing power structures and respect for the local government. There is definitely an argument that this is plain business investment - China has a lot of foreign currency to invest because of its trade surplus, and there isn't the opportunity within China to invest it all, so it is engaging with trade partners to invest in their economies so that they can increase future trade with China. You can also make the argument that this is not benign and China is trying to create control over foreign governments with this investment. I'm kinda "both can be true, but either are better than how we did it"
  - Der_Einzige 2mo ago
    Go ask anyone in Southeast Asia which they'd rather have colonize them: USA or China. They'll usually refer to China in terms like the "thousand year enemy".
    - FooBarWidget 2mo ago
      That really depends on who you ask. If it's that bad then why did all of those countries sign up for the RCEP?
    - amunozo 2mo ago
      Ask Latin America which they'd rather have colonize them.
      - brabel 2mo ago
        We don’t want anyone to colonize us just like you don’t want your country to be colonized. China offers business opportunities while the USA and Europe seem to always look down on everyone else and impose their own values on others. China does not give a shit about how we run our countries as long as they can trust that deals will be honored. We don’t want to be taught how great your democracy is or whatever, we want our countries to become better by our own efforts, with fair deals when dealing with other nations.
- fakedang 2mo ago
  They've mostly been concerned with resource extraction rather than colonial exploitation like the West. And in fact, they've ditched most of their infra and tech projects in Africa, because of inherent instability in dealing with tinpot dictatorships. On the other hand, every one in Asia is wary of too much Chinese presence and influence.
gpvos 2mo ago
It has been quite good at indebting countries to them, in Africa but also e.g. Montenegro.
- MaxPock 2mo ago
  Africans are more indebted to Western multilateral organizations and private Western bondholders than to the Chinese. The idea that Africans are being finessed by the Chinese is racist and stems from a "we know what's good for you" imperialistic lens.
  - gpvos 2mo ago
    Interesting. I'm just relaying what I read in quality newspapers over here. And it's not just Africa. Anyway, you may be right. Do you have numbers?
ninjin 2mo ago
I keep hearing this and I fail to see any reason to believe that it will be the case. Any empire, in the history of our species, has always had an initial "inward-looking" period prior to becoming a full-fledged imperialist oppressor. Edo-period Japan into Imperial Japan, for example. Rather, what I think any budding empire needs a period of growth to become a large enough fish and also to delude its leadership and population into the convenient mindset that their flavour of imperialism is good and justified ("Hakkou ichiu", "The white man's burden", etc.). To me, the PRC is at the very end of that process and I recommend anyone doubting this to go and read conversations and listen to the words of the populace that is turning increasingly nationalistic and you will hear the same old tales of revanchism and exceptionalism that we are used to hearing (during my recent visit, I watched the morning news every day for about a week and without fail a military inspection, new ship, new plane, etc. was presented each day). In addition, I think those outside of Asia are very much shielded from the early signs, but go and read about PRC influence and tensions in South Korea, Japan, RoC, Philippines, Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, India, Pakistan, and Tajikistan and you will see something rather different than "inward-looking". To me, here the PRC is simply testing the waters for the extent of the influence of other powers and how far it can go. Likewise, we are seeing overseas naval bases being constructed which sure is an indication for a desire to project power outwards. I want to believe that this time it will be different. I really do. Apologists around me say "It will only be Taiwan and the South China Sea, then then it will stop." and I would love to believe them. But can anyone truly internalise the narrative that international utopia will be spearheaded by a deeply authoritarian state that controls information like no other (and gladly exports that technology), disappears its own population at will, spins an increasingly strong nationalistic narrative, etc.? No, sorry, I think the "inward-looking" narrative is simply a convenient way for us to close our eyes and find comfort in ignorance, rather than in facts.
- marcus_holmes 2mo ago
  You may well be right, and it's really only that China has been more inward-looking recently, and given the chance it will spread its true colonial wings.
  - 2mo ago
Khaine 2mo ago
Except of course for claiming all of the South China seas. See the Nine-dash line
elisbce 2mo ago
"Not interested in world domination" LOL. That's what Putin said 10 years ago.

nativeit 2mo ago

China has been aggressively developing infrastructure and financial services all over Africa and the rest of Asia. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-106866 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-106866

fnord77 2mo ago
resource extraction stealth colonialism
- d5lt5 2mo ago
  The alternative is western colonialism Africa experienced before, and bombing campaigns.
  - CaptWorld 2mo ago
    Western colonialism is better than eastern colonialism tho. Look at the Russian orgs in Africa.
    - marcus_holmes 2mo ago
      Better for whom? Certainly not the colonised...
      - CaptWorld 2mo ago
        Yeah for the ones who get colonized, western ones were better than eastern ones. Japanese ones would've made Britishers look like kids when they were occupying eastern India.
        marcus_holmes 2mo ago
        You know the British invented the concentration camp in Africa, right? We're told a relatively benign version of our history. You kinda have to travel to the countries involved to get the real version.
        rmunn 2mo ago
        Even with all the downsides of being colonized by Britain, it was still far better than being colonized by Belgium. Heck, being colonized by pretty much anybody but Belgium was better than being colonized by Belgium. Read up on the Belgian Congo sometime: it was a parade of horrors. GP was making a relative comparison; pointing out that both were bad in absolute terms does not negate the point. -2 is still greater than -17.
        kajaktum 2mo ago
        Who cares who invented it first. Who did it best? Japans concentration camp was unholy abomination and it doesn’t get enough attention today
        edoceo 2mo ago
        How can you see the road not taken?
        CaptWorld 2mo ago
        You check existing conditions and extrapolate.
        amunozo 2mo ago
        You just put Russia and Japan as "Eastern"; they have nothing to do with each (and I would consider both as more Western than Eastern regarding imperial/colonial matters) other nor with China. China is a massive country that has always been massive and rich. Their style is more like the tribute systems they had before, as it is being observed in the BRI and other projects.
        2mo ago
    - subscribed 2mo ago
      Single counterexample for single counterexample: Belgium's Leopold - not sure if Western colonialism is so much better (and notice I didn't even bring up "western India")
      - CaptWorld 2mo ago
        Not so much better but better in general compared to the middle eastern/eastern colonialism.. westerners have good competiton that the atrocities will be self corrected by itself but middle eastern/eastern colonies needed external western support like Korean war, hiroshima/nagasaki.. main example I can think of opposite is china under deng but there too deng had become relatively capitalist to fix the issues.
marcus_holmes 2mo ago
Yeah I saw this in Cambodia when I lived there. Sihanoukville had become a Chinese enclave almost completely. Different to the way that French colonialism worked, though. Less direct government, more influence of existing power structures and respect for the local government. There is definitely an argument that this is plain business investment - China has a lot of foreign currency to invest because of its trade surplus, and there isn't the opportunity within China to invest it all, so it is engaging with trade partners to invest in their economies so that they can increase future trade with China. You can also make the argument that this is not benign and China is trying to create control over foreign governments with this investment. I'm kinda "both can be true, but either are better than how we did it"
- Der_Einzige 2mo ago
  Go ask anyone in Southeast Asia which they'd rather have colonize them: USA or China. They'll usually refer to China in terms like the "thousand year enemy".
  - FooBarWidget 2mo ago
    That really depends on who you ask. If it's that bad then why did all of those countries sign up for the RCEP?
  - amunozo 2mo ago
    Ask Latin America which they'd rather have colonize them.
    - brabel 2mo ago
      We don’t want anyone to colonize us just like you don’t want your country to be colonized. China offers business opportunities while the USA and Europe seem to always look down on everyone else and impose their own values on others. China does not give a shit about how we run our countries as long as they can trust that deals will be honored. We don’t want to be taught how great your democracy is or whatever, we want our countries to become better by our own efforts, with fair deals when dealing with other nations.
fakedang 2mo ago
They've mostly been concerned with resource extraction rather than colonial exploitation like the West. And in fact, they've ditched most of their infra and tech projects in Africa, because of inherent instability in dealing with tinpot dictatorships. On the other hand, every one in Asia is wary of too much Chinese presence and influence.

gpvos 2mo ago

It has been quite good at indebting countries to them, in Africa but also e.g. Montenegro.

MaxPock 2mo ago
Africans are more indebted to Western multilateral organizations and private Western bondholders than to the Chinese. The idea that Africans are being finessed by the Chinese is racist and stems from a "we know what's good for you" imperialistic lens.
- gpvos 2mo ago
  Interesting. I'm just relaying what I read in quality newspapers over here. And it's not just Africa. Anyway, you may be right. Do you have numbers?

ninjin 2mo ago

I keep hearing this and I fail to see any reason to believe that it will be the case. Any empire, in the history of our species, has always had an initial "inward-looking" period prior to becoming a full-fledged imperialist oppressor. Edo-period Japan into Imperial Japan, for example. Rather, what I think any budding empire needs a period of growth to become a large enough fish and also to delude its leadership and population into the convenient mindset that their flavour of imperialism is good and justified ("Hakkou ichiu", "The white man's burden", etc.). To me, the PRC is at the very end of that process and I recommend anyone doubting this to go and read conversations and listen to the words of the populace that is turning increasingly nationalistic and you will hear the same old tales of revanchism and exceptionalism that we are used to hearing (during my recent visit, I watched the morning news every day for about a week and without fail a military inspection, new ship, new plane, etc. was presented each day). In addition, I think those outside of Asia are very much shielded from the early signs, but go and read about PRC influence and tensions in South Korea, Japan, RoC, Philippines, Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, India, Pakistan, and Tajikistan and you will see something rather different than "inward-looking". To me, here the PRC is simply testing the waters for the extent of the influence of other powers and how far it can go. Likewise, we are seeing overseas naval bases being constructed which sure is an indication for a desire to project power outwards. I want to believe that this time it will be different. I really do. Apologists around me say "It will only be Taiwan and the South China Sea, then then it will stop." and I would love to believe them. But can anyone truly internalise the narrative that international utopia will be spearheaded by a deeply authoritarian state that controls information like no other (and gladly exports that technology), disappears its own population at will, spins an increasingly strong nationalistic narrative, etc.? No, sorry, I think the "inward-looking" narrative is simply a convenient way for us to close our eyes and find comfort in ignorance, rather than in facts.

marcus_holmes 2mo ago
You may well be right, and it's really only that China has been more inward-looking recently, and given the chance it will spread its true colonial wings.
- 2mo ago

Khaine 2mo ago

Except of course for claiming all of the South China seas. See the Nine-dash line

elisbce 2mo ago

"Not interested in world domination" LOL. That's what Putin said 10 years ago.