4 ms·

> last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was usin

by xp84 3mo ago

> last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was using his phone to unlock all the time I hope you aren't suggesting that set of details makes this okay. I should be able to park in a faraday cage 2 miles underground and still start it the same as I can on the surface. Including with my phone, if it's equipped with phone-as-key. The phone-as-key shouldn't only work when online and shouldn't require the car to be online, either. And this is a problem trivially solved with proper use of cryptography. The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. Just like I don't carry two car keys.

bri3d 3mo ago
It doesn't; BMW use the CCC Digital Key standard for "Digital Key Plus" and there's no Internet required post provisioning. This story really reeks of misunderstanding or "needs more information" as for BMW especially, I don't see any scenario where this could have happened, regardless of physical or phone key use.
- cloudfudge 3mo ago
  It's possible they were trying to do something like remote start, which (at least in my bmw) does use the godawful bmw online service. In the retelling, this might have expanded to "couldn't start the car."
gruez 3mo ago
>The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works, and then getting mad at the shop/credit card company/apple when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can fall into a toilet, you can drop it and the screen cracks, etc. By not carrying the keys, you're rolling the dice every time. >Just like I don't carry two car keys. That all depends on your risk appetite. I normally wouldn't carry money in my socks, but if I'm in a foreign country I very well might. Likewise if I'm going on a road trip where I might be days away from home, I very well might bring a second key, in case i accidentally lock one in the car or whatever.
- esterna 3mo ago
  > How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works Apple Pay involves at least a third party (your bank) as a part of its function. This entity has to be reachable. Unlocking my car needs me, and my car. > when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? I would be justified in being mad if, randomly, my BMW car would decide to not accept a BMW key (virtualized or otherwise). > Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can [...] "I will not accept this Euro bank note. You could have dropped it into the gutter on your way here, so it's strange for you to be mad at me if you don't have a backup."
  - noja 3mo ago
    > Apple Pay involves at least a third party (your bank) as a part of its function. This entity has to be reachable. No it doesn't. It has to have a recent token, and if it does not it will contact your bank.
  - gruez 3mo ago
    The point isn't that it's fine for smartphone car keys to randomly fail, it's that there's plenty of other reasons they can fail that you're already living on the edge if all you're carrying is your phone. Therefore the "it's dangerous to assume ..." claim doesn't hold.
    - xp84 3mo ago
      > there's plenty of other reasons they can fail that you're already living on the edge if all you're carrying is your phone I see what you're arguing, but I just want to point out 2 things: 1. If I leave the house for a trip (especially a distant trip) with just my phone, I and anyone would understand intuitively my own responsibilities: namely, to keep my phone intact and its battery from draining completely. Since I already have a strong interest in both of these for other reasons, this is basically automatic anyway, and a backup plan for the latter is completely doable - I'd have to drop $20 on a gas station phone charger and hang out somewhere for 10 minutes while it goes from 0->6% or whatever. Anyway, if I understand my responsibilities like this, I'm able to make an informed decision on whether to trust it. 2. If we're victim-blaming here, saying "Serves him right, should have carried the keyfob as a backup" that renders it pointless to even have phone-as-key. The fob not having to be in your pocket or handbag is the only benefit. Unless, I suppose, you consider phone-as-key as the actual backup, for use only in the case you drop your keyfob into a storm drain. But that isn't how it's marketed at all. In my entire life, I've literally never lost my car keys, because they just stay in my pocket the whole time I'm away from home. So I'd value a 'phone-as-backup' at $0.
dotancohen 3mo ago
My Tesla works like this. No internet connection needed, just Bluetooth. I do keep a card key in my wallet just in case.

by xp84 3mo ago

bri3d 3mo ago

It doesn't; BMW use the CCC Digital Key standard for "Digital Key Plus" and there's no Internet required post provisioning. This story really reeks of misunderstanding or "needs more information" as for BMW especially, I don't see any scenario where this could have happened, regardless of physical or phone key use.

cloudfudge 3mo ago
It's possible they were trying to do something like remote start, which (at least in my bmw) does use the godawful bmw online service. In the retelling, this might have expanded to "couldn't start the car."

gruez 3mo ago

>The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works, and then getting mad at the shop/credit card company/apple when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can fall into a toilet, you can drop it and the screen cracks, etc. By not carrying the keys, you're rolling the dice every time. >Just like I don't carry two car keys. That all depends on your risk appetite. I normally wouldn't carry money in my socks, but if I'm in a foreign country I very well might. Likewise if I'm going on a road trip where I might be days away from home, I very well might bring a second key, in case i accidentally lock one in the car or whatever.

esterna 3mo ago
> How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works Apple Pay involves at least a third party (your bank) as a part of its function. This entity has to be reachable. Unlocking my car needs me, and my car. > when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? I would be justified in being mad if, randomly, my BMW car would decide to not accept a BMW key (virtualized or otherwise). > Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can [...] "I will not accept this Euro bank note. You could have dropped it into the gutter on your way here, so it's strange for you to be mad at me if you don't have a backup."
- noja 3mo ago
  > Apple Pay involves at least a third party (your bank) as a part of its function. This entity has to be reachable. No it doesn't. It has to have a recent token, and if it does not it will contact your bank.
- gruez 3mo ago
  The point isn't that it's fine for smartphone car keys to randomly fail, it's that there's plenty of other reasons they can fail that you're already living on the edge if all you're carrying is your phone. Therefore the "it's dangerous to assume ..." claim doesn't hold.
  - xp84 3mo ago
    > there's plenty of other reasons they can fail that you're already living on the edge if all you're carrying is your phone I see what you're arguing, but I just want to point out 2 things: 1. If I leave the house for a trip (especially a distant trip) with just my phone, I and anyone would understand intuitively my own responsibilities: namely, to keep my phone intact and its battery from draining completely. Since I already have a strong interest in both of these for other reasons, this is basically automatic anyway, and a backup plan for the latter is completely doable - I'd have to drop $20 on a gas station phone charger and hang out somewhere for 10 minutes while it goes from 0->6% or whatever. Anyway, if I understand my responsibilities like this, I'm able to make an informed decision on whether to trust it. 2. If we're victim-blaming here, saying "Serves him right, should have carried the keyfob as a backup" that renders it pointless to even have phone-as-key. The fob not having to be in your pocket or handbag is the only benefit. Unless, I suppose, you consider phone-as-key as the actual backup, for use only in the case you drop your keyfob into a storm drain. But that isn't how it's marketed at all. In my entire life, I've literally never lost my car keys, because they just stay in my pocket the whole time I'm away from home. So I'd value a 'phone-as-backup' at $0.

dotancohen 3mo ago

My Tesla works like this. No internet connection needed, just Bluetooth. I do keep a card key in my wallet just in case.