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This is my primary concern with modern cars. You are at the complete merci of the security and correctness of the cloud management software for the correctly fu

by spockz 3mo ago

This is my primary concern with modern cars. You are at the complete merci of the security and correctness of the cloud management software for the correctly functioning of the car. Wouldn’t it be better if your phone/devices would pair directly with the car, exchange keys, and have the company cloud only function as a proxy. On holiday a guests BMW didn’t want to “start” anymore because it couldn’t phone home because of lack of phone reception. They had to contact the dealer at home and move heaven and earth to get some dealer code to allow the car to start again for a while. Why is this even allowed?

motbus3 3mo ago
How they will be able to block you from using your car when they deem that you should by a new one? Or how would they be able to make something a paid feature after you bought it? You need to support these poor fellas
- voakbasda 3mo ago
  I expect a firmware update to “accidentally” brick parts of my new car at some point, then claim it takes them 6 months to roll back the mistake. That is how they will do it.
samdhar7 3mo ago
[flagged]
gruez 3mo ago
>On holiday a guests BMW didn’t want to “start” anymore because it couldn’t phone home because of lack of phone reception. They had to contact the dealer at home and move heaven and earth to get some dealer code to allow the car to start again for a while. Why is this even allowed? Surely there's more to this story? AFAIK last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was using his phone to unlock all the time.
- xp84 3mo ago
  > last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was using his phone to unlock all the time I hope you aren't suggesting that set of details makes this okay. I should be able to park in a faraday cage 2 miles underground and still start it the same as I can on the surface. Including with my phone, if it's equipped with phone-as-key. The phone-as-key shouldn't only work when online and shouldn't require the car to be online, either. And this is a problem trivially solved with proper use of cryptography. The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. Just like I don't carry two car keys.
  - bri3d 3mo ago
    It doesn't; BMW use the CCC Digital Key standard for "Digital Key Plus" and there's no Internet required post provisioning. This story really reeks of misunderstanding or "needs more information" as for BMW especially, I don't see any scenario where this could have happened, regardless of physical or phone key use.
    - cloudfudge 3mo ago
      It's possible they were trying to do something like remote start, which (at least in my bmw) does use the godawful bmw online service. In the retelling, this might have expanded to "couldn't start the car."
  - gruez 3mo ago
    >The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works, and then getting mad at the shop/credit card company/apple when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can fall into a toilet, you can drop it and the screen cracks, etc. By not carrying the keys, you're rolling the dice every time. >Just like I don't carry two car keys. That all depends on your risk appetite. I normally wouldn't carry money in my socks, but if I'm in a foreign country I very well might. Likewise if I'm going on a road trip where I might be days away from home, I very well might bring a second key, in case i accidentally lock one in the car or whatever.
jjice 3mo ago
Agreed that it's absurd. Consumers continue to purchase cars that do this though. BMW doing this, having proprietary bolt heads, and the subscription heated seats fiasco from nearly a decade ago have made it clear that BMW is a make that will try to screw you at every turn, yet people continue to purchase them. It's a shame. I will continue to purchase vehicles with as internet connected and touch screen features as possible. My 2025 Toyota has knobs and a physical key still. Terrified what will be left on the market when I have to get a new vehicle in (hopefully over) 15 years.
- Tanoc 3mo ago
  A lot of people don't know anything about any of this. They don't even understand what the difference between something like SYNC or Android Auto is. And the manufacturers subdue as much information about these things as possible. Outside of the automotive enthusiast and now increasingly the tech space, there's no discussion or spread of awareness about these kinds of hostilities built into vehicles. So yes, people continue to purchase car that do this because they don't know they do this. And if the manufacturers have their way those people will never know until it's reared up and bit them.
knowaveragejoe 3mo ago
I just want the most basic, no-frills EV truck. I'd even pay a premium over what such a thing _should_ cost. I want no cloud connectivity _at all_ unless I add it myself in some way.
- xoxxala 3mo ago
  You might want to check out Slate: https://www.slate.auto/en https://www.slate.auto/en No embeded modem.
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  Rivian let's you disable all connectivity. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786
  - dotancohen 3mo ago
    I believe that Tesla does, or did. I never disabled mine as I want the vehicle to improve on the roads that I frequent. And it has, noticeably so, in the four years I've owned the vehicle.
  - jeffbee 3mo ago
    You can disable connectivity in any car by pulling fuses.
    - olyjohn 3mo ago
      Yeah but sometimes that disables other things too. Like when I pulled the fuse on my car for the radio, it disabled the power door locks and the door/headlight chime. Not every item gets it's own circuit.
    - HDBaseT 3mo ago
      Not without consequences. You could be sacrificing other features, increasing your increase premiums (or get claims denied) or potentially breaking the law.
heaney-555 3mo ago
>modern cars Tesla doesn't have this problem. It just works. No cloud needed, other than at the time of purchase.
- vitally3643 3mo ago
  That's only because they were all designed before the always-on spyware madness began.
  - MattGrommes 3mo ago
    They send over-the-air updates all the time. If they project that it'll be profitable, they'll switch everybody over as soon as you can say the words.
morkalork 3mo ago
Should honestly be a matter of national security. A bad actor could brick and entire county's vehicles

by spockz 3mo ago

motbus3 3mo ago

How they will be able to block you from using your car when they deem that you should by a new one? Or how would they be able to make something a paid feature after you bought it? You need to support these poor fellas

voakbasda 3mo ago
I expect a firmware update to “accidentally” brick parts of my new car at some point, then claim it takes them 6 months to roll back the mistake. That is how they will do it.

samdhar7 3mo ago

[flagged]

gruez 3mo ago

>On holiday a guests BMW didn’t want to “start” anymore because it couldn’t phone home because of lack of phone reception. They had to contact the dealer at home and move heaven and earth to get some dealer code to allow the car to start again for a while. Why is this even allowed? Surely there's more to this story? AFAIK last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was using his phone to unlock all the time.

xp84 3mo ago
> last time I heard about something like this, it was because the guy's car was parked 5 stories underground, and didn't carry his car keys, because he was using his phone to unlock all the time I hope you aren't suggesting that set of details makes this okay. I should be able to park in a faraday cage 2 miles underground and still start it the same as I can on the surface. Including with my phone, if it's equipped with phone-as-key. The phone-as-key shouldn't only work when online and shouldn't require the car to be online, either. And this is a problem trivially solved with proper use of cryptography. The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. Just like I don't carry two car keys.
- bri3d 3mo ago
  It doesn't; BMW use the CCC Digital Key standard for "Digital Key Plus" and there's no Internet required post provisioning. This story really reeks of misunderstanding or "needs more information" as for BMW especially, I don't see any scenario where this could have happened, regardless of physical or phone key use.
  - cloudfudge 3mo ago
    It's possible they were trying to do something like remote start, which (at least in my bmw) does use the godawful bmw online service. In the retelling, this might have expanded to "couldn't start the car."
- gruez 3mo ago
  >The reason for this is that if the car gives people the ability to start a trip with a phone, it's dangerous to assume they'll always carry a keyfob as a backup. How's this any different than say, not bringing your wallet with you, because 95% of the time apple pay works, and then getting mad at the shop/credit card company/apple when the payment terminal randomly decides to not accept apple pay? Not to mention there are plenty of other ways a phone can fail. It can fall into a toilet, you can drop it and the screen cracks, etc. By not carrying the keys, you're rolling the dice every time. >Just like I don't carry two car keys. That all depends on your risk appetite. I normally wouldn't carry money in my socks, but if I'm in a foreign country I very well might. Likewise if I'm going on a road trip where I might be days away from home, I very well might bring a second key, in case i accidentally lock one in the car or whatever.

jjice 3mo ago

Agreed that it's absurd. Consumers continue to purchase cars that do this though. BMW doing this, having proprietary bolt heads, and the subscription heated seats fiasco from nearly a decade ago have made it clear that BMW is a make that will try to screw you at every turn, yet people continue to purchase them. It's a shame. I will continue to purchase vehicles with as internet connected and touch screen features as possible. My 2025 Toyota has knobs and a physical key still. Terrified what will be left on the market when I have to get a new vehicle in (hopefully over) 15 years.

Tanoc 3mo ago
A lot of people don't know anything about any of this. They don't even understand what the difference between something like SYNC or Android Auto is. And the manufacturers subdue as much information about these things as possible. Outside of the automotive enthusiast and now increasingly the tech space, there's no discussion or spread of awareness about these kinds of hostilities built into vehicles. So yes, people continue to purchase car that do this because they don't know they do this. And if the manufacturers have their way those people will never know until it's reared up and bit them.

knowaveragejoe 3mo ago

I just want the most basic, no-frills EV truck. I'd even pay a premium over what such a thing _should_ cost. I want no cloud connectivity _at all_ unless I add it myself in some way.

xoxxala 3mo ago
You might want to check out Slate: https://www.slate.auto/en https://www.slate.auto/en No embeded modem.
Cider9986 3mo ago
Rivian let's you disable all connectivity. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786
- dotancohen 3mo ago
  I believe that Tesla does, or did. I never disabled mine as I want the vehicle to improve on the roads that I frequent. And it has, noticeably so, in the four years I've owned the vehicle.
- jeffbee 3mo ago
  You can disable connectivity in any car by pulling fuses.
  - olyjohn 3mo ago
    Yeah but sometimes that disables other things too. Like when I pulled the fuse on my car for the radio, it disabled the power door locks and the door/headlight chime. Not every item gets it's own circuit.
  - HDBaseT 3mo ago
    Not without consequences. You could be sacrificing other features, increasing your increase premiums (or get claims denied) or potentially breaking the law.

heaney-555 3mo ago

>modern cars Tesla doesn't have this problem. It just works. No cloud needed, other than at the time of purchase.

vitally3643 3mo ago
That's only because they were all designed before the always-on spyware madness began.
- MattGrommes 3mo ago
  They send over-the-air updates all the time. If they project that it'll be profitable, they'll switch everybody over as soon as you can say the words.

morkalork 3mo ago

Should honestly be a matter of national security. A bad actor could brick and entire county's vehicles