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> Mmm, this I disagree with particularly. I'd suggest taking that up with Paul Graham, @dang, and @tomhow - they would respond that curious conversation about

by defrost 3mo ago

> Mmm, this I disagree with particularly. I'd suggest taking that up with Paul Graham, @dang, and @tomhow - they would respond that curious conversation about second order effects is what they seek - sans the direct personal attacks seeking to directly shame another person for their choices. > How do you feel about the moral dilemma of working for a weapons manufacturer? Weapons, of course, cut both ways; Ukraine is pushing back against an aggressor by using weapons, long range sensing, passive radar, etc. > Every year that passes it becomes more important that technologists are aware of the ethical implications of their work Agreed - that doesn't imply you should call perceived less enlightened others names or champion throwing them in the stocks .. such things rarely convert and often harden resistance.

datsci_est_2015 3mo ago
We can argue about whether the OP should have found a more elegant way to call out the commenter he was responding to, of course. But I stand my ground firm that this industry needs an extreme dose of self-reflection injected directly to its heart, and shame seems to be an effective medium available to us as peer technologists. There are different methods of shaming, of course, but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed. Furthermore, whether someone does feel ashamed because of what someone commented should not be a criteria for whether a comment is a “personal attack”. Humans use shame to correct antisocial behavior, and humans feel shame in order to avoid antisocial behavior. The technology professions are rife with antisocial behavior. Our leaders are chosen and their behavior is optimized as antisocial, for shareholder (and personal) short-term growth. > Weapons, of course, cut both ways; Ukraine is pushing back against an aggressor by using weapons, long range sensing, passive radar, etc. This is an entirely different subject that I don’t think we should get sidetracked by. I’ll just recommend Die Physiker (or one of its translations) as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented.
- defrost 3mo ago
  > as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented As a gentle reminder, it was yourself that raised weapons as a moral dilemma, I responded with no argument other than a plain observation. > but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change. > I’ll just recommend Die Physiker If I recall correctly that came up when I had a long discussion with Mark Oliphant in the late 1970s, William Tutte had a few books of his own to recommend on similar themes not long after.
  - datsci_est_2015 3mo ago
    > More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change. Do you have alternative suggestions, or will you stick to simply discouraging the use of shame on this forum?
    - defrost 3mo ago
      I'm pretty happy abiding by the spirit of this forum. There are many forums that allow and even encourage attacks on others.
    - tomhow 3mo ago
      I'm a moderator here, and defrost is right. It's not cool to berate or “shame” people on HN. The very first phrase in the "In Comments" section of the guidelines is "Be Kind". We can critique issues and trends in the industry or broader economy, including advertising; that happens all the time here. But also, on HN we're trying for conversation that is curious and thoughtful, at a standard that is higher than the average discussion forum. If we're going to make sweeping assertions like “advertising shouldn't exist”, we also need to offer suggestions of viable alternatives for ways that companies can get their products known about by people who might need them, and for websites to generate income to fund their operations. These are absolutely valid topics of thoughtful discussion in the spirit of curious conversation, which is entirely what HN is for. Shaming an individual for working in a domain you've decided you don't like (though legal and widespread) is never okay here.
      - datsci_est_2015 3mo ago
        Weak response imo. Shame is a powerful tool and lots of people on this forum should feel more shame for what they do. In fact, I see quite a bit of shaming that occurs here on HN when someone says something completely out of pocket (in fact, in a way you are shaming both me and the original poster) - but that rarely gets called out by moderators because it’s already accepted as not impolite. I often see shaming when users are outright racist - which to be clear I also agree with the use of shame in that instance. The moderation is not unbiased in this regard.

by defrost 3mo ago

datsci_est_2015 3mo ago

We can argue about whether the OP should have found a more elegant way to call out the commenter he was responding to, of course. But I stand my ground firm that this industry needs an extreme dose of self-reflection injected directly to its heart, and shame seems to be an effective medium available to us as peer technologists. There are different methods of shaming, of course, but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed. Furthermore, whether someone does feel ashamed because of what someone commented should not be a criteria for whether a comment is a “personal attack”. Humans use shame to correct antisocial behavior, and humans feel shame in order to avoid antisocial behavior. The technology professions are rife with antisocial behavior. Our leaders are chosen and their behavior is optimized as antisocial, for shareholder (and personal) short-term growth. > Weapons, of course, cut both ways; Ukraine is pushing back against an aggressor by using weapons, long range sensing, passive radar, etc. This is an entirely different subject that I don’t think we should get sidetracked by. I’ll just recommend Die Physiker (or one of its translations) as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented.

defrost 3mo ago
> as a fun starting point for radicalization against the argument you presented As a gentle reminder, it was yourself that raised weapons as a moral dilemma, I responded with no argument other than a plain observation. > but ideally those who are currently earning money from unethical sources should feel ashamed More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change. > I’ll just recommend Die Physiker If I recall correctly that came up when I had a long discussion with Mark Oliphant in the late 1970s, William Tutte had a few books of his own to recommend on similar themes not long after.
- datsci_est_2015 3mo ago
  > More often they likely sleep deeply on sheets of insanely high thread count, shame only goes so far to effect change. Do you have alternative suggestions, or will you stick to simply discouraging the use of shame on this forum?
  - defrost 3mo ago
    I'm pretty happy abiding by the spirit of this forum. There are many forums that allow and even encourage attacks on others.
  - tomhow 3mo ago
    I'm a moderator here, and defrost is right. It's not cool to berate or “shame” people on HN. The very first phrase in the "In Comments" section of the guidelines is "Be Kind". We can critique issues and trends in the industry or broader economy, including advertising; that happens all the time here. But also, on HN we're trying for conversation that is curious and thoughtful, at a standard that is higher than the average discussion forum. If we're going to make sweeping assertions like “advertising shouldn't exist”, we also need to offer suggestions of viable alternatives for ways that companies can get their products known about by people who might need them, and for websites to generate income to fund their operations. These are absolutely valid topics of thoughtful discussion in the spirit of curious conversation, which is entirely what HN is for. Shaming an individual for working in a domain you've decided you don't like (though legal and widespread) is never okay here.
    - datsci_est_2015 3mo ago
      Weak response imo. Shame is a powerful tool and lots of people on this forum should feel more shame for what they do. In fact, I see quite a bit of shaming that occurs here on HN when someone says something completely out of pocket (in fact, in a way you are shaming both me and the original poster) - but that rarely gets called out by moderators because it’s already accepted as not impolite. I often see shaming when users are outright racist - which to be clear I also agree with the use of shame in that instance. The moderation is not unbiased in this regard.