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> Software craftsmen should be egoless, humble, with a focus on the outcome rather than the code or the process. That sounds good. But developers aren't like t

> Software craftsmen should be egoless, humble, with a focus on the outcome rather than the code or the process. That sounds good. But developers aren't like that. We are concerned about getting the job done in a way that promotes our career and/or keeps us from getting fired, well- most of the time. > I also think there should be a way for passionate, skilled programmers to differentiate themselves from the mainstream commodity bodies, and also to recognise one another, and demonstrate their value to potential employers. What could that be, and how could we make it work? These are called certifications, and their value has diminished. Here's why: Many of us survive by Google searching, using stackoverflow and better documented frameworks. And, there still aren't enough of us. Many of us feel we are overpaid, but most would never admit it. By deciding on a way to determine who is proficient and who isn't, you risk a lot of people not being able to find work, and for what goal? Right now programming is an art. If you make it into a trade with the federal, state, or county regulations saying that the developer must be qualified in X, and they have tests for X (that become irrelevant daily), then you are going to (1) eliminate a lot of developers from the workforce and (2) stagnate the art because right now it develops at a faster pace than any of us can keep up with.

paulhauggis 14y ago
"Many of us feel we are overpaid, but most would never admit it." Really? I've always felt underpaid. Most business owners don't understand software or deadlines and me (and my developer co-workers) have always had to suffer as a result of this by working insane hours for weeks at a time to get things done. But keep thinking this way. It will only help me when I need to hire developers for my own business.
- sdafdasdfasdf 14y ago
  I look out for myself. My salary is a lot better than my experience level for what I do. I'm talking about guilt. I have done this for many years now and I see people that work harder than I do each day with more skill to make much less salarywise. And it isn't just me. I think a lot of what we get paid for is the ability to adapt and endure not knowing how to do what we do when it changes all the time. BTW- those running their own business often are in the lower income bracket, which is why I haven't made that jump yet. More power to ya.
- nthj 14y ago
  > Really? I've always felt underpaid. I think the sentence before the one you quoted clears things up: >> Many of us survive by Google searching, using stackoverflow and better documented frameworks. And, there still aren't enough of us. Many of us feel we are overpaid, but most would never admit it. If you're shipping real software for real businesses that weaves a half-dozen technologies together in a way that none of the business guys knew was even possible, and you proposed and executed on the idea. If you're in a large corporation working 40 hours a week, always clocking out at five, and there are no consequences for dates slipping, then yeah, I could maybe understand feeling overpaid. But if I'm building the systems that make the business? The business could not operate without this software? About to make 5 salaried employees 1.4x productive? Yes, I'll charge a lot, and yes, I'm worth every penny.

paulhauggis 14y ago

"Many of us feel we are overpaid, but most would never admit it." Really? I've always felt underpaid. Most business owners don't understand software or deadlines and me (and my developer co-workers) have always had to suffer as a result of this by working insane hours for weeks at a time to get things done. But keep thinking this way. It will only help me when I need to hire developers for my own business.

sdafdasdfasdf 14y ago
I look out for myself. My salary is a lot better than my experience level for what I do. I'm talking about guilt. I have done this for many years now and I see people that work harder than I do each day with more skill to make much less salarywise. And it isn't just me. I think a lot of what we get paid for is the ability to adapt and endure not knowing how to do what we do when it changes all the time. BTW- those running their own business often are in the lower income bracket, which is why I haven't made that jump yet. More power to ya.
nthj 14y ago
> Really? I've always felt underpaid. I think the sentence before the one you quoted clears things up: >> Many of us survive by Google searching, using stackoverflow and better documented frameworks. And, there still aren't enough of us. Many of us feel we are overpaid, but most would never admit it. If you're shipping real software for real businesses that weaves a half-dozen technologies together in a way that none of the business guys knew was even possible, and you proposed and executed on the idea. If you're in a large corporation working 40 hours a week, always clocking out at five, and there are no consequences for dates slipping, then yeah, I could maybe understand feeling overpaid. But if I'm building the systems that make the business? The business could not operate without this software? About to make 5 salaried employees 1.4x productive? Yes, I'll charge a lot, and yes, I'm worth every penny.