7 ms·

How to write English prose (2023)

136 points by geneticdrifts 3mo ago

tolugenius 3mo ago
English prose is one of those things I never quite got well; I grew up having read different versions of the Bible (like King James), old English versions of books, and found it to more "overtly wordy" (found it funny to imagine people talking like that about grocery shopping). I am curious how prose may change in 20-30 years given how cemented internet/social media talk becomes the norm, as well AI (and however education goes during that time). I agree with the author on some points but it depends on the material and subject matter where each matters.
thataccount 3mo ago
There is something distinctly different from people speaking and writing in English prose in the 1600's versus someone trying to do so today. The person from today is infinitely more likely to be putting on airs than the person who is not commanding attention as an anachronism in the past. To be sure, Royal Societies were all about impressing each other to a certain extent, but also, there were some clever fellows/ladies that hovered and flitted about them.
hbarka 3mo ago
> A good part of our sleepes is peeced out with visions, Because of current slang, I read this as “peaced out” then realized it’s “pieced out”. Peace out
- SoftTalker 3mo ago
  Any modern printing of old prose that used pre-standard-spelling should be updated to use modern spelling. It's simply too distracting to read otherwise.
GCA10 3mo ago
Kept out of sight in this rogue essay is the classic question: Who's your audience? If you're writing for yourself (and maybe a very small number of equally erudite readers) cut loose! Embrace "anfractuous density and heedless flamboyance." But if you're trying to change people's minds, or share knowledge widely, everything in this essay is defiantly at odds with what's necessary to get the rest of the world to pay attention.
- scandox 3mo ago
  What's interesting to me is that the examples he gives are beautiful because of their sincerity. Even if there is artifice, or they're being formal or playful, their style reflects their reading, their shared culture and of course as you say their audience - which I think for them was a very small elite. Anyone who writes in a flamboyant style now - as the essay's author does - necessarily comes across as a kind of pastiche. There is something camp or affected about it. Maybe that can change. Maybe a new flamboyance can develop. But I think his antiquated style of flamboyance is unlikely to come back to real life.
  - gerdesj 3mo ago
    Take a copy of "Usage and Abusage" and blend with Lord Byron after applying suitable libations; toss in the bear for body. Season to taste with the darker dictionary (the parts chained down to protect the reader). Simmer over a fire of coked Latin and Greek primers, scented with a whiff of lilac. Serve in a curiously beige vessel.
  - dofm 3mo ago
    > Anyone who writes in a flamboyant style now - as the essay's author does - necessarily comes across as a kind of pastiche. There is something camp or affected about it Necessarily? Not at all. I am not sure where “camp” or “affected” come into it. I am a nerdy English bloke and I suppose Americans, Canadians and Australians etc., will assume I am camp (which troubles me not one bit) so I may be unable to accurately judge, but I didn’t get either from this. It reminded me more of Fry or Lewis than Self, put it that way.
- Barrin92 3mo ago
  does anyone need to get the 'rest of the world' to pay attention? That's already a crowded market of questionable characters. There's something ironic and self-defeating in trying to write to the whole world while also having such a low opinion of the whole world that a writer thinks they can't express themselves the way they want to or lose their audience. As DBH says at the end of the essay, don't write down to what you presume to be the level of your readers, that's insulting to both you and your readers.
Animats 3mo ago
This guy hates Strunk and White’s Elements of Style, the famous "omit needless words" book. He's plugging for a baroque style that would be unreadable today. We do have baroque styles today, but they're different from classical baroque literature. They're the postings that start with a bio and cover the author's hobbies before getting to the point, perhaps including an anecdote from the author's past. There are writers who can make that interesting, and you can read them in the New Yorker. But the serious magazines have editors. In blog postings, you're reading the slush pile.
- jacobolus 3mo ago
  Strunk and White promote all sorts of prescriptivist nonsense, taking arbitrary personal preferences and elevating them to sacred rules (including many which they themselves constantly violate because they don't accord with idiomatic English).
- hecreto 3mo ago
  There are a handful of these every day on the front page. It is very jarring when they suddenly shift topics completely, using some vaguely tangential connection between what they started with, and the vapid thing they want to write about. Honestly - it’s wankery. Here’s one I just came across: https://asteriskmag.com/issues/15/rust-and-boll https://asteriskmag.com/issues/15/rust-and-boll And there are plenty of others.
- orphereus 3mo ago
  The modern response to baroque text is "mucho texto" jpeg with a gangster Yoda
- chris_armstrong 3mo ago
  It might just be me, but I find his baroque style very readable. Despite using a vocabulary much broader than mine (irritating but admirable), he at least seems to have read his prose aloud, and considered how it's meter makes its meaning fluent. I agree that many writers fill their works with needless diversions and unnecessary expositions on their life that add nothing to their text, but this is different from a "baroque style".
- 3mo ago
A_D_E_P_T 3mo ago
> 8. If you must choose between elegance and perfect clarity, allow yourself a period of decorously agonized indecision, and then always choose elegance. I believe that this may be true of prose (it depends on the style of the author and the nature of what's being written,) but that it's untrue of every other form of written communication, and acclaimed prose stylists are often very poor letter-writers for just this reason. In writing non-prose, I find that there are only two rules: 1. Be as clear as possible. 2. Be as brief as possible, but do not veer into the intentionally laconic or abbreviated. I also am absolutely certain that attempting to attain maximal elegance is a trap that leads directly to purple prose, to works of literature that cannot naturally be read out loud, and to other unfortunate outcomes.
jp0001 3mo ago
The flatulence of text in that prose smells of rotting roses from an apology gone bad.
kimjune01 3mo ago
i learned that no matter how good i am at writing prose, it doesnt matter if nobody reads it. so i write for AI agents instead, hoping that it'll get picked up by an agent and find propagation that way
boznz 3mo ago
Writing styles like this actually gets in the way of reading a story in my opinion and, I also assume, is also some high-brow writers way of getting around for the need for an actual story anyway. Many of the books I had to read at school, and that "cultured" friends read are like this, but truthfully they put me off reading, and is the type of writing I (as an author) go out of my way to avoid unless the character implicitly demands it.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
Atlas667 3mo ago
Damn, so pretentious. I agree with many things, in particular his sentiment about styles and "rules", but his demeanor is uninspiring. He doesnt provide much clarity around good writing and just comes off as rationalizing his own taste. You cant scorn popularity and accesibility, you gotta understand it and work with it to the extent that its important for what you want to achieve. Art, history and social contexts fold in on themselves, if you're using a baroque style of writing then understand where it belongs and do something cool with it. Be conscious of it.
juleiie 3mo ago
For me there is only one rule of writing: Reader must enjoy reading what you wrote. They are ultimately the final judge - the very reason to write anything at all. Anything else is just huffing your own farts for the kick of it. No matter how flowery the words are in your book or how intricate nuances of language. Such things can be outright counterproductive.
- breezybottom 3mo ago
  That's still bad advice. Sometimes writing is just useful, not enjoyable.
  - juleiie 3mo ago
    If it’s useful, as in - it has informative function, then digestibility is even more important. That’s the core tenet of any piece of journalism after all. To present information in an accessible way.
    - breezybottom 3mo ago
      Digestible doesn't mean enjoyable.
- kmoser 3mo ago
  Some people enjoy reading flowery words and intricately nuanced language; those who enjoy writing in that style should continue to do so, and reap the rewards of a similarly inclined audience.
Myrmornis 3mo ago
> How to Write English Prose > There are few if any passages in the works of Sir Thomas Browne that I do not find thoroughly delightful; but two afford me particularly intense pleasure. > To my mind, each is in its own way a perfect, exquisitely faceted gem of English prose from an especially glorious literary epoch. The music of the one has haunted me for most of my life; Oh come on. Sir Thomas Browne looks well worth reading but the author of this article is unreadably pretentious.
- everybodyknows 3mo ago
  Who was it said "Death to all modifiers"? Nouns, verbs, prepositions, and articles. Use those.
doodaddy 3mo ago
Look, I am in no position to seriously critique the author’s writing. He clearly has linguistic chops. But what kind of bunk is this? We get it, the flowery, overdrawn language of yore is more expressive. But that kind of writing gets in its own way. Words seem to trump concept. But reading that sort of writing feels like being in a museum; sure that Victorian gown looks pretty but does anyone actually want to wear it? And then, while arguing against monotony, this piece spends all its time repeating the same structure: a ten-dollar adjective followed by a ten-dollar noun. Ironically, the five passages cited as “good writing” mostly avoid the wordiness that the piece spends all its time arguing for. > Do not use a thesaurus. Oh now he’s just taking the piss.
- loopmonster 3mo ago
  To be fair, even if I have to look up half the words in the post to understand what he's trying to say, 'Do not use a thesaurus' still has weight - it's one thing to already know the perfect word for what you're trying to say (even if many others don't know that word), but another to decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understanding the nuances of your pick.
  - feoren 3mo ago
    > decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understanding the nuances of your pick. From the article: > One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both. One would need to have a spirit that is overly cautious with money to not love some Thomas Browne quotes? This author is 100% doing exactly that -- replacing words with ones they picked out of a thesaurus and don't fully understand.
- jpfromlondon 3mo ago
  Simple words can create beautiful and precise prose, even that is lost today.
gammalost 3mo ago
As someone with english as my second language this style is just too much to bother. Sure, I get that it is elegant and precise. But for me it results in stilted reading. Hence I disagree with the "Never write for your audience" part of the essay.
- jarbus 3mo ago
  As someone who generally liked the article, this is perhaps the strongest argument against it. Prose like this requires even native speakers to really focus. I wouldn't write this way for anything intended to be read by an unknown person.
- n4r9 3mo ago
  It's less precise than it pretends, in my opinion. At least, it gleefully drops precision in favour of artful insinuation. For example, in reference to Orwell and Strunk & White it uses the word "decrees" to mean "advocates", implying a sort of pompous authority.
specproc 3mo ago
So much hate for this piece in the thread, I'm seeing almost no positive comments. I'm tempted to be unkind, but will exercise restraint; we are here, for the most part, technical writers, for whom parsimony is a professional virtue. I loved it. We're in an age where matrix multiplication can yawn out endless passages of trite, dull, sludge. The author, to my mind, makes a powerful and inspiring case for a future for human-written prose. The ability to effectively and creatively deploy a rich and complex vocabulary is the flex (in the parlance of our times) that distinguishes the craftsmen from the clankers.
- starkshift 3mo ago
  This person - gets it
- antonvs 3mo ago
  The issue I have with it is that it seems gratuitous, intended to impress - not that far from the edgy teenager who’s just discovered a thesaurus. Even the choice of passages he admires seems to fit that description. Any reader is likely to come across passages that really speak to them at some point, but to raise that to “One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both” is just… sophomoric. And if you think that “clankers” (such a silly, misapplied, childish term) somehow aren’t going to be capable of producing such prose, I have bad news for you.
Exoristos 3mo ago
I'm surprised to note -- if the discussion here is any evidence, then anger and literacy are inversely correlated.
- jpfromlondon 3mo ago
  bravo
midnightbobarun 3mo ago
normal person: "I like to yap." Sir Baroquesly Yappington, Esq., an intellectual: writes a whole article about it
Ozzie-D 3mo ago
[flagged]
skobes 3mo ago
We are fortunate that this individual's stylistic perspective is out there adding spice and variety to the world. I think, however, that most of us would be ill-advised to emulate it. Orwell's maxim, "never use a long word when a short one will do", is something the best writers have always freely ignored. But it's a reliable guardrail for the writer of merely average skill, steering them toward something passable rather than vomit-inducing.
starkshift 3mo ago
I hate to say it, but the reactions in this discussion indicate to me a lack of imagination and literary thinking ability in the Hacker News audience. That is my overall impression anyway, I don't understand the hate!
- pcrh 3mo ago
  Agreed. The audience here tends towards functional/technical writing rather than expressive writing. On the other hand, should an article about typography be posted, then there will be many comments regarding the nuances of serifs, kerning, spacing and ligatures. Ignoring of course that none of these change the facts/data being communicated!
Finnucane 3mo ago
As a production editor at a uni press, who has to occasionally translate jargon into English, I find Orwell's essay to still be entirely relevant. The kinds of writing Orwell warned about still flourishes in the pablum emails we get from HR, the management reports with roundabout justifications for more layoffs, the political speeches that use a lot of words to say nothing. I just had a manuscript where the author was very fond of using trite filler phrases that added very little. It kind of made me miss the days of red pencils, a somewhat more satisfying way of cutting. Strunk & White, I have to agree, is mostly not very useful.
tmoertel 3mo ago
Of late I have been reading the writings of some of the United States' founders. I am struck by how sophisticated they are compared to modern writing. Consider this portion of a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Isaac McPherson on the subject of what today we would call "intellectual property": > It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices. [1] This passage is typical for the letters of educated people of that era. Plowing through the endless waves of vacuous emails that reach my inbox daily, I cannot help but wonder whether we have lost something valuable in the arts of thinking and of expressing our thoughts. [1] https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12...
ofalkaed 3mo ago
His em-dash usage is not clearly defined and distinct from other punctuation marks, it introduces a fair amount of unintended ambiguity. It is easy enough to understand but a few times I had to stop and try and figure out if there was some nuance and intent behind it all. >And—well, here, That was especially egregious. And! but—well, here, I guess, if I had to guess—which I don't(but I will)—the purpose of his essay seems to be, that; unintended ambiguity is good and really quite nice from an aesthetic standpoint. David Bently Hart seems to be the anti-McCarthy and falls into all the same traps as McCarthy, just walks into them backwards and blindfolded through a parentheses and a digression instead of jumping in head first.
thcipriani 3mo ago
What a great endorsement for Strunk and White! I love a precise insight, and I'll cede that unfamiliar word may be necessary. But a polemic that shit-talks the best authors of the 20th century is mid and unpersuasive.
znnajdla 3mo ago
This piece of writing moved me to my core, shook my whole being, enlivened my soul. It reminded me that I need to step away from Claude Code every once in a while and read the Classics.
andytratt 3mo ago
love writing on prose thanks for the share! Marcel Proust would be proud.
deleted 3mo ago
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lordleft 3mo ago
It's almost refreshing to see intense debate about something DBH wrote that isn't about theology.
gabriel666smith 3mo ago
I think there are tonnes of errors and repetition at the top of this essay. 'Glorious' repeats across two of the opening sentences, for example. The title, combined with this, has provoked me into live-editing it. I've turned on "anyone with the link can comment", and am using "suggest". If you're interested, feel free to jump in: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxprXLxbOlgaAQ2-IfYyk4zqdCmgySiEDJ32FS_e5N4/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxprXLxbOlgaAQ2-IfYyk4zq... There are lots of similarities between writing/editing prose and coding. I think these become much more apparent when using version history / suggestion tools in word processors, especially collaboratively. For editing long-form prose, especially fiction, word processing software is a long way behind git. This has always surprised me.

136 points by geneticdrifts 3mo ago

English prose is one of those things I never quite got well; I grew up having read different versions of the Bible (like King James), old English versions of books, and found it to more "overtly wordy" (found it funny to imagine people talking like that about grocery shopping). I am curious how prose may change in 20-30 years given how cemented internet/social media talk becomes the norm, as well AI (and however education goes during that time). I agree with the author on some points but it depends on the material and subject matter where each matters.

thataccount 3mo ago

There is something distinctly different from people speaking and writing in English prose in the 1600's versus someone trying to do so today. The person from today is infinitely more likely to be putting on airs than the person who is not commanding attention as an anachronism in the past. To be sure, Royal Societies were all about impressing each other to a certain extent, but also, there were some clever fellows/ladies that hovered and flitted about them.

hbarka 3mo ago

> A good part of our sleepes is peeced out with visions, Because of current slang, I read this as “peaced out” then realized it’s “pieced out”. Peace out

SoftTalker 3mo ago
Any modern printing of old prose that used pre-standard-spelling should be updated to use modern spelling. It's simply too distracting to read otherwise.

GCA10 3mo ago

Kept out of sight in this rogue essay is the classic question: Who's your audience? If you're writing for yourself (and maybe a very small number of equally erudite readers) cut loose! Embrace "anfractuous density and heedless flamboyance." But if you're trying to change people's minds, or share knowledge widely, everything in this essay is defiantly at odds with what's necessary to get the rest of the world to pay attention.

scandox 3mo ago
What's interesting to me is that the examples he gives are beautiful because of their sincerity. Even if there is artifice, or they're being formal or playful, their style reflects their reading, their shared culture and of course as you say their audience - which I think for them was a very small elite. Anyone who writes in a flamboyant style now - as the essay's author does - necessarily comes across as a kind of pastiche. There is something camp or affected about it. Maybe that can change. Maybe a new flamboyance can develop. But I think his antiquated style of flamboyance is unlikely to come back to real life.
- gerdesj 3mo ago
  Take a copy of "Usage and Abusage" and blend with Lord Byron after applying suitable libations; toss in the bear for body. Season to taste with the darker dictionary (the parts chained down to protect the reader). Simmer over a fire of coked Latin and Greek primers, scented with a whiff of lilac. Serve in a curiously beige vessel.
- dofm 3mo ago
  > Anyone who writes in a flamboyant style now - as the essay's author does - necessarily comes across as a kind of pastiche. There is something camp or affected about it Necessarily? Not at all. I am not sure where “camp” or “affected” come into it. I am a nerdy English bloke and I suppose Americans, Canadians and Australians etc., will assume I am camp (which troubles me not one bit) so I may be unable to accurately judge, but I didn’t get either from this. It reminded me more of Fry or Lewis than Self, put it that way.
Barrin92 3mo ago
does anyone need to get the 'rest of the world' to pay attention? That's already a crowded market of questionable characters. There's something ironic and self-defeating in trying to write to the whole world while also having such a low opinion of the whole world that a writer thinks they can't express themselves the way they want to or lose their audience. As DBH says at the end of the essay, don't write down to what you presume to be the level of your readers, that's insulting to both you and your readers.

Animats 3mo ago

This guy hates Strunk and White’s Elements of Style, the famous "omit needless words" book. He's plugging for a baroque style that would be unreadable today. We do have baroque styles today, but they're different from classical baroque literature. They're the postings that start with a bio and cover the author's hobbies before getting to the point, perhaps including an anecdote from the author's past. There are writers who can make that interesting, and you can read them in the New Yorker. But the serious magazines have editors. In blog postings, you're reading the slush pile.

jacobolus 3mo ago
Strunk and White promote all sorts of prescriptivist nonsense, taking arbitrary personal preferences and elevating them to sacred rules (including many which they themselves constantly violate because they don't accord with idiomatic English).
hecreto 3mo ago
There are a handful of these every day on the front page. It is very jarring when they suddenly shift topics completely, using some vaguely tangential connection between what they started with, and the vapid thing they want to write about. Honestly - it’s wankery. Here’s one I just came across: https://asteriskmag.com/issues/15/rust-and-boll https://asteriskmag.com/issues/15/rust-and-boll And there are plenty of others.
orphereus 3mo ago
The modern response to baroque text is "mucho texto" jpeg with a gangster Yoda
chris_armstrong 3mo ago
It might just be me, but I find his baroque style very readable. Despite using a vocabulary much broader than mine (irritating but admirable), he at least seems to have read his prose aloud, and considered how it's meter makes its meaning fluent. I agree that many writers fill their works with needless diversions and unnecessary expositions on their life that add nothing to their text, but this is different from a "baroque style".
3mo ago

A_D_E_P_T 3mo ago

> 8. If you must choose between elegance and perfect clarity, allow yourself a period of decorously agonized indecision, and then always choose elegance. I believe that this may be true of prose (it depends on the style of the author and the nature of what's being written,) but that it's untrue of every other form of written communication, and acclaimed prose stylists are often very poor letter-writers for just this reason. In writing non-prose, I find that there are only two rules: 1. Be as clear as possible. 2. Be as brief as possible, but do not veer into the intentionally laconic or abbreviated. I also am absolutely certain that attempting to attain maximal elegance is a trap that leads directly to purple prose, to works of literature that cannot naturally be read out loud, and to other unfortunate outcomes.

jp0001 3mo ago

The flatulence of text in that prose smells of rotting roses from an apology gone bad.

kimjune01 3mo ago

i learned that no matter how good i am at writing prose, it doesnt matter if nobody reads it. so i write for AI agents instead, hoping that it'll get picked up by an agent and find propagation that way

boznz 3mo ago

Writing styles like this actually gets in the way of reading a story in my opinion and, I also assume, is also some high-brow writers way of getting around for the need for an actual story anyway. Many of the books I had to read at school, and that "cultured" friends read are like this, but truthfully they put me off reading, and is the type of writing I (as an author) go out of my way to avoid unless the character implicitly demands it.

deleted 3mo ago
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Atlas667 3mo ago

Damn, so pretentious. I agree with many things, in particular his sentiment about styles and "rules", but his demeanor is uninspiring. He doesnt provide much clarity around good writing and just comes off as rationalizing his own taste. You cant scorn popularity and accesibility, you gotta understand it and work with it to the extent that its important for what you want to achieve. Art, history and social contexts fold in on themselves, if you're using a baroque style of writing then understand where it belongs and do something cool with it. Be conscious of it.

juleiie 3mo ago

For me there is only one rule of writing: Reader must enjoy reading what you wrote. They are ultimately the final judge - the very reason to write anything at all. Anything else is just huffing your own farts for the kick of it. No matter how flowery the words are in your book or how intricate nuances of language. Such things can be outright counterproductive.

breezybottom 3mo ago
That's still bad advice. Sometimes writing is just useful, not enjoyable.
- juleiie 3mo ago
  If it’s useful, as in - it has informative function, then digestibility is even more important. That’s the core tenet of any piece of journalism after all. To present information in an accessible way.
  - breezybottom 3mo ago
    Digestible doesn't mean enjoyable.
kmoser 3mo ago
Some people enjoy reading flowery words and intricately nuanced language; those who enjoy writing in that style should continue to do so, and reap the rewards of a similarly inclined audience.

Myrmornis 3mo ago

> How to Write English Prose > There are few if any passages in the works of Sir Thomas Browne that I do not find thoroughly delightful; but two afford me particularly intense pleasure. > To my mind, each is in its own way a perfect, exquisitely faceted gem of English prose from an especially glorious literary epoch. The music of the one has haunted me for most of my life; Oh come on. Sir Thomas Browne looks well worth reading but the author of this article is unreadably pretentious.

everybodyknows 3mo ago
Who was it said "Death to all modifiers"? Nouns, verbs, prepositions, and articles. Use those.

doodaddy 3mo ago

Look, I am in no position to seriously critique the author’s writing. He clearly has linguistic chops. But what kind of bunk is this? We get it, the flowery, overdrawn language of yore is more expressive. But that kind of writing gets in its own way. Words seem to trump concept. But reading that sort of writing feels like being in a museum; sure that Victorian gown looks pretty but does anyone actually want to wear it? And then, while arguing against monotony, this piece spends all its time repeating the same structure: a ten-dollar adjective followed by a ten-dollar noun. Ironically, the five passages cited as “good writing” mostly avoid the wordiness that the piece spends all its time arguing for. > Do not use a thesaurus. Oh now he’s just taking the piss.

loopmonster 3mo ago
To be fair, even if I have to look up half the words in the post to understand what he's trying to say, 'Do not use a thesaurus' still has weight - it's one thing to already know the perfect word for what you're trying to say (even if many others don't know that word), but another to decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understanding the nuances of your pick.
- feoren 3mo ago
  > decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understanding the nuances of your pick. From the article: > One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both. One would need to have a spirit that is overly cautious with money to not love some Thomas Browne quotes? This author is 100% doing exactly that -- replacing words with ones they picked out of a thesaurus and don't fully understand.
jpfromlondon 3mo ago
Simple words can create beautiful and precise prose, even that is lost today.

gammalost 3mo ago

As someone with english as my second language this style is just too much to bother. Sure, I get that it is elegant and precise. But for me it results in stilted reading. Hence I disagree with the "Never write for your audience" part of the essay.

jarbus 3mo ago
As someone who generally liked the article, this is perhaps the strongest argument against it. Prose like this requires even native speakers to really focus. I wouldn't write this way for anything intended to be read by an unknown person.
n4r9 3mo ago
It's less precise than it pretends, in my opinion. At least, it gleefully drops precision in favour of artful insinuation. For example, in reference to Orwell and Strunk & White it uses the word "decrees" to mean "advocates", implying a sort of pompous authority.

specproc 3mo ago

So much hate for this piece in the thread, I'm seeing almost no positive comments. I'm tempted to be unkind, but will exercise restraint; we are here, for the most part, technical writers, for whom parsimony is a professional virtue. I loved it. We're in an age where matrix multiplication can yawn out endless passages of trite, dull, sludge. The author, to my mind, makes a powerful and inspiring case for a future for human-written prose. The ability to effectively and creatively deploy a rich and complex vocabulary is the flex (in the parlance of our times) that distinguishes the craftsmen from the clankers.

starkshift 3mo ago
This person - gets it
antonvs 3mo ago
The issue I have with it is that it seems gratuitous, intended to impress - not that far from the edgy teenager who’s just discovered a thesaurus. Even the choice of passages he admires seems to fit that description. Any reader is likely to come across passages that really speak to them at some point, but to raise that to “One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both” is just… sophomoric. And if you think that “clankers” (such a silly, misapplied, childish term) somehow aren’t going to be capable of producing such prose, I have bad news for you.

Exoristos 3mo ago

I'm surprised to note -- if the discussion here is any evidence, then anger and literacy are inversely correlated.

jpfromlondon 3mo ago
bravo

midnightbobarun 3mo ago

normal person: "I like to yap." Sir Baroquesly Yappington, Esq., an intellectual: writes a whole article about it

Ozzie-D 3mo ago

[flagged]

skobes 3mo ago

We are fortunate that this individual's stylistic perspective is out there adding spice and variety to the world. I think, however, that most of us would be ill-advised to emulate it. Orwell's maxim, "never use a long word when a short one will do", is something the best writers have always freely ignored. But it's a reliable guardrail for the writer of merely average skill, steering them toward something passable rather than vomit-inducing.

starkshift 3mo ago

I hate to say it, but the reactions in this discussion indicate to me a lack of imagination and literary thinking ability in the Hacker News audience. That is my overall impression anyway, I don't understand the hate!

pcrh 3mo ago
Agreed. The audience here tends towards functional/technical writing rather than expressive writing. On the other hand, should an article about typography be posted, then there will be many comments regarding the nuances of serifs, kerning, spacing and ligatures. Ignoring of course that none of these change the facts/data being communicated!

Finnucane 3mo ago

As a production editor at a uni press, who has to occasionally translate jargon into English, I find Orwell's essay to still be entirely relevant. The kinds of writing Orwell warned about still flourishes in the pablum emails we get from HR, the management reports with roundabout justifications for more layoffs, the political speeches that use a lot of words to say nothing. I just had a manuscript where the author was very fond of using trite filler phrases that added very little. It kind of made me miss the days of red pencils, a somewhat more satisfying way of cutting. Strunk & White, I have to agree, is mostly not very useful.

tmoertel 3mo ago

Of late I have been reading the writings of some of the United States' founders. I am struck by how sophisticated they are compared to modern writing. Consider this portion of a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Isaac McPherson on the subject of what today we would call "intellectual property": > It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices. [1] This passage is typical for the letters of educated people of that era. Plowing through the endless waves of vacuous emails that reach my inbox daily, I cannot help but wonder whether we have lost something valuable in the arts of thinking and of expressing our thoughts. [1] https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12...

ofalkaed 3mo ago

His em-dash usage is not clearly defined and distinct from other punctuation marks, it introduces a fair amount of unintended ambiguity. It is easy enough to understand but a few times I had to stop and try and figure out if there was some nuance and intent behind it all. >And—well, here, That was especially egregious. And! but—well, here, I guess, if I had to guess—which I don't(but I will)—the purpose of his essay seems to be, that; unintended ambiguity is good and really quite nice from an aesthetic standpoint. David Bently Hart seems to be the anti-McCarthy and falls into all the same traps as McCarthy, just walks into them backwards and blindfolded through a parentheses and a digression instead of jumping in head first.

thcipriani 3mo ago

What a great endorsement for Strunk and White! I love a precise insight, and I'll cede that unfamiliar word may be necessary. But a polemic that shit-talks the best authors of the 20th century is mid and unpersuasive.

znnajdla 3mo ago

This piece of writing moved me to my core, shook my whole being, enlivened my soul. It reminded me that I need to step away from Claude Code every once in a while and read the Classics.

andytratt 3mo ago

love writing on prose thanks for the share! Marcel Proust would be proud.

deleted 3mo ago

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lordleft 3mo ago

It's almost refreshing to see intense debate about something DBH wrote that isn't about theology.

gabriel666smith 3mo ago

I think there are tonnes of errors and repetition at the top of this essay. 'Glorious' repeats across two of the opening sentences, for example. The title, combined with this, has provoked me into live-editing it. I've turned on "anyone with the link can comment", and am using "suggest". If you're interested, feel free to jump in: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxprXLxbOlgaAQ2-IfYyk4zqdCmgySiEDJ32FS_e5N4/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxprXLxbOlgaAQ2-IfYyk4zq... There are lots of similarities between writing/editing prose and coding. I think these become much more apparent when using version history / suggestion tools in word processors, especially collaboratively. For editing long-form prose, especially fiction, word processing software is a long way behind git. This has always surprised me.