3 ms·

With theft, somebody ends up without an Xbox. Theft is wrong. This is mere breach of contract, whether it's wrong depends on the contract.

raincole 2mo ago
In your world model, hardware and electricity are made out of thin air?
zht 2mo ago
What?
- phildenhoff 2mo ago
  It's not _theft_ because nothing is _stolen_. The tokens are being used in a way that breaches the contract agreed to by whomever set up the account with OpenAI, Anthropic, Kilo, Antigravity etc. but it's not theft.
  - chasd00 2mo ago
    The credit card and the money is what was stolen.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
      Are we reading the same article? That's mentioned once, as a potential alternative, nested in a bulleted list of alternatives. This is not an article about credit card fraud. This is about people circumventing the model company's attempts to protect their intellectual "property" (which, if you insist on that incoherent usage of the word "property", they themselves stole from the rest of us). It's equivalent to buying a DVD in the US which is region-locked to Asia. Grey market, not black market. If you use a stolen credit card to buy that DVD, well tat's a totally separate matter.
      - 1337h4xx 2mo ago
        It's mostly refunding and card fraud because "bad money drives out good" in any marketplace. It's equivalent to getting a refund on an Amazon package you received, which is why a frontier model is being sold at around 2% of the face value.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
    Right, theft requires that there be somebody who no longer has access. This is about too many people having access. Piracy might be a more fitting term.
selectodude 2mo ago
You’ll have to clarify who the counterparties are to this contract and where the person whose credit card was stolen fits into it.
- __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
  I don't doubt that stolen cards are involved, but you could say that for anything that has to do with card-not-present transactions, e.g. Amazon retail. Is there reason to believe that it's especially prominent in this case? I assume most of it is just people who want cheaper access to these models and don't mind subsidizing access via somebody who is simultaneously distilling the model.
mynegation 2mo ago
What?! It is definitely credit card fraud, and a criminal enterprise, and by any definition it is wrong. I cannot imagine a jurisdiction where this is a “mere breach of contract”.
- __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
  Where are you getting the idea that the cards are stolen? Sure it's mentioned that some of them likely are, but there's no reason to believe that that's most of them or that the fact that they're stolen has anything to do with the way this market functions. This is about controlling who gets to use the tokens for what, not about payment fraud.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]

raincole 2mo ago

In your world model, hardware and electricity are made out of thin air?

zht 2mo ago

What?

phildenhoff 2mo ago
It's not _theft_ because nothing is _stolen_. The tokens are being used in a way that breaches the contract agreed to by whomever set up the account with OpenAI, Anthropic, Kilo, Antigravity etc. but it's not theft.
- chasd00 2mo ago
  The credit card and the money is what was stolen.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
    Are we reading the same article? That's mentioned once, as a potential alternative, nested in a bulleted list of alternatives. This is not an article about credit card fraud. This is about people circumventing the model company's attempts to protect their intellectual "property" (which, if you insist on that incoherent usage of the word "property", they themselves stole from the rest of us). It's equivalent to buying a DVD in the US which is region-locked to Asia. Grey market, not black market. If you use a stolen credit card to buy that DVD, well tat's a totally separate matter.
    - 1337h4xx 2mo ago
      It's mostly refunding and card fraud because "bad money drives out good" in any marketplace. It's equivalent to getting a refund on an Amazon package you received, which is why a frontier model is being sold at around 2% of the face value.
- __MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
  Right, theft requires that there be somebody who no longer has access. This is about too many people having access. Piracy might be a more fitting term.

selectodude 2mo ago

You’ll have to clarify who the counterparties are to this contract and where the person whose credit card was stolen fits into it.

__MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
I don't doubt that stolen cards are involved, but you could say that for anything that has to do with card-not-present transactions, e.g. Amazon retail. Is there reason to believe that it's especially prominent in this case? I assume most of it is just people who want cheaper access to these models and don't mind subsidizing access via somebody who is simultaneously distilling the model.

mynegation 2mo ago

What?! It is definitely credit card fraud, and a criminal enterprise, and by any definition it is wrong. I cannot imagine a jurisdiction where this is a “mere breach of contract”.

__MatrixMan__ 2mo ago
Where are you getting the idea that the cards are stolen? Sure it's mentioned that some of them likely are, but there's no reason to believe that that's most of them or that the fact that they're stolen has anything to do with the way this market functions. This is about controlling who gets to use the tokens for what, not about payment fraud.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]