3 ms·

The typical "investor" is an ETF these days. Your standard SPY or VTI investor doesn't know jack diddly squat about shareholder rights, nor do they ever plan t

The typical "investor" is an ETF these days. Your standard SPY or VTI investor doesn't know jack diddly squat about shareholder rights, nor do they ever plan to invoke them.

DaedalusII 3mo ago
you should have a look at proxy firms. you would be surprised
- dragontamer 3mo ago
  Could you explain to me how an investor owning SPY shares gets to control the proxy vote? Oh, don't worry. I already know the answer. I'm asking if YOU can tell me the answer.
  - mpalczewski 3mo ago
    You can buy IVV instead and get the same exposure but this time you get to vote. Or you could just not own spy and buy the shares individually.
    - dragontamer 3mo ago
      What 401k program do you or your peers have that allows you to buy funds outside of the few, selected by the 401k manager? I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option.
      - mpalczewski 3mo ago
        they typically offer a brokerage option. fidelity and vanguard both offered this when I had them. if that wasn't on the table I'd roll it into something that gave me flexibility.
        Danox 3mo ago
        Yes Yes Yes…
      - reaperducer 3mo ago
        I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option. You can have a 401(k) without your employer. My wife has one and can buy and sell any stocks she wants.
      - Danox 3mo ago
        You can transfer your 401(k) to an account that will allow you to buy individual shares I did that and bought as many shares as I could in a blue chip tech company. Glad I did because if I had stayed in one of those so called index (all for one) funds my rate of return would’ve been very, very small over the years. The managers ofsuch funds are lazy and invest in multiple mediocre companies, most of whom produce mediocre returns for example investing in 10 tech companies when only two or three of the companies actually accomplish anything won’t help you in the long-term. Investing in one or two really good tech companies over time allowed me to retire early.
  - DaedalusII 3mo ago
    that what i mean. where do all those votes go? someone controls them. and those interests are bought and paid for
    - dragontamer 3mo ago
      In practice? To Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Who have crafted companies who have virtually no voting rights but get purchased up by the masses through passive index funds.
kelnos 3mo ago
Willful ignorance is not an excuse. If you buy into an ETF, you are delegating responsibility to the people who run the ETF (or the people who maintain the index that the ETF tracks), and you've decided you're ok with that, and are ok with whatever companies are in the index/ETF. You can always decide to pick an ETF that doesn't invest in the companies you don't like, or invest in individual stocks if you have the time and stomach for it.
- dragontamer 3mo ago
  I'm not saying I like this turn of events. I'm saying it's how the world works. The majority of pension funds (public or private) and 401k plans are simply passive index funds with nearly no direct voting rights (and at best very limited, indirect voting rights).
  - andsoitis 3mo ago
    > The majority of pension funds (public or private) and 401k plans are simply passive index funds That’s completely wrong. Most 401k plans have by far more active fund options than passive fund options. Notwithstanding, more and more dollars are tilting towards the passive index funds, i.e. through consumer choice. Where do you get your information from?
    - dragontamer 3mo ago
      You do realize that passive funds have more money than active funds today, right? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/passive-etfs-hit-tipping-point-120000887.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/passive-etfs-hit-tipping-poin... Sometime last year, passive funds overtook active funds.
      - andsoitis 3mo ago
        Re-read what I wrote.
        3mo ago

The typical "investor" is an ETF these days. Your standard SPY or VTI investor doesn't know jack diddly squat about shareholder rights, nor do they ever plan to invoke them.

DaedalusII 3mo ago

you should have a look at proxy firms. you would be surprised

dragontamer 3mo ago
Could you explain to me how an investor owning SPY shares gets to control the proxy vote? Oh, don't worry. I already know the answer. I'm asking if YOU can tell me the answer.
- mpalczewski 3mo ago
  You can buy IVV instead and get the same exposure but this time you get to vote. Or you could just not own spy and buy the shares individually.
  - dragontamer 3mo ago
    What 401k program do you or your peers have that allows you to buy funds outside of the few, selected by the 401k manager? I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option.
    - mpalczewski 3mo ago
      they typically offer a brokerage option. fidelity and vanguard both offered this when I had them. if that wasn't on the table I'd roll it into something that gave me flexibility.
      - Danox 3mo ago
        Yes Yes Yes…
    - reaperducer 3mo ago
      I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option. You can have a 401(k) without your employer. My wife has one and can buy and sell any stocks she wants.
    - Danox 3mo ago
      You can transfer your 401(k) to an account that will allow you to buy individual shares I did that and bought as many shares as I could in a blue chip tech company. Glad I did because if I had stayed in one of those so called index (all for one) funds my rate of return would’ve been very, very small over the years. The managers ofsuch funds are lazy and invest in multiple mediocre companies, most of whom produce mediocre returns for example investing in 10 tech companies when only two or three of the companies actually accomplish anything won’t help you in the long-term. Investing in one or two really good tech companies over time allowed me to retire early.
- DaedalusII 3mo ago
  that what i mean. where do all those votes go? someone controls them. and those interests are bought and paid for
  - dragontamer 3mo ago
    In practice? To Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Who have crafted companies who have virtually no voting rights but get purchased up by the masses through passive index funds.

kelnos 3mo ago

Willful ignorance is not an excuse. If you buy into an ETF, you are delegating responsibility to the people who run the ETF (or the people who maintain the index that the ETF tracks), and you've decided you're ok with that, and are ok with whatever companies are in the index/ETF. You can always decide to pick an ETF that doesn't invest in the companies you don't like, or invest in individual stocks if you have the time and stomach for it.

dragontamer 3mo ago
I'm not saying I like this turn of events. I'm saying it's how the world works. The majority of pension funds (public or private) and 401k plans are simply passive index funds with nearly no direct voting rights (and at best very limited, indirect voting rights).
- andsoitis 3mo ago
  > The majority of pension funds (public or private) and 401k plans are simply passive index funds That’s completely wrong. Most 401k plans have by far more active fund options than passive fund options. Notwithstanding, more and more dollars are tilting towards the passive index funds, i.e. through consumer choice. Where do you get your information from?
  - dragontamer 3mo ago
    You do realize that passive funds have more money than active funds today, right? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/passive-etfs-hit-tipping-point-120000887.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/passive-etfs-hit-tipping-poin... Sometime last year, passive funds overtook active funds.
    - andsoitis 3mo ago
      Re-read what I wrote.
      - 3mo ago