6 ms·

According to the article, the biggest gap is at the high performing level, not the average. "Although the average scores among American students were not signi

by geebee 14y ago

According to the article, the biggest gap is at the high performing level, not the average. "Although the average scores among American students were not significantly lower than the top performers, several nations far outstripped the United States in the proportion of students who scored at the highest levels on the math and science tests." This may suggest that America's elite students are either 1) unable to get the kind of education that leads to high math and science scores, or 2) uninterested in putting in the amount of effort it takes to get past a certain level of competence. Here's the forbes list of highest paid careers... http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/04/jobs-careers-compensation-lead-careers-cx_pm_0604bestjobs_slide_2.html?thisSpeed=20000&boxes=custom http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/04/jobs-careers-compensation-l... 8 of the top 10 are medical specialties. The other two are orthodontists and CEOs. Here's a link to the amount of math and physics typically required for a med school application. http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2011/12/05/how-to-select-undergraduate-premed-coursework http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissi... (posted again here) • two semesters of biology with laboratory (up to four semesters at some schools) • two semesters of inorganic chemistry with laboratory • two semesters of organic chemistry with laboratory • two semesters of math, at least one in calculus • two semesters of physics with laboratory • two semesters of English and/or writing So, "at least one semester of calculus". UCSD (my alma mater) had an easier track of physics that required an easier track of calculus that was acceptable for many of the med-school bound bio majors (while not one of the most elite undergraduate universities, UCSD does have a very high rate of admission to med school). You do need to take a few tough courses (ochem and so forth), but all in all, I think the highest paid fields tend to reward moderate skill in the sciences, but not exceptional mathematically ability. In short, it doesn't appear that access to the highest paid professions in the US requires a tremendous amount of math. You can't ignore it, but a single semester of calc seems to do the trick. I've heard OChem is tough... I haven't taken it. But perhaps US students are behaving rationally by rationing the amount of effort they put into math and physics?

w1ntermute 14y ago
The reason why pay is so high in the medical field is because it is highly government regulated, and is an anomaly in that regard. Not only is the number of medical students admitted each year tightly regulated (reducing the supply), the costs of medical treatment are paid indirectly (via insurance companies), obscuring costs and making it easier to raise rates. If regulations were loosened, you'd end up with a similar situation to what you see with lawyers now - a lot of students graduating from law school and finding out that most lawyers these days don't actually make that much (or can't even find a job).
- geebee 14y ago
  I agree, and the "cartel" that you've described carefully limits the number of foreign physicians who can compete with Americans. I agree with you about law at the middle to low end, but clearly the very elite schools still often lead to lucrative careers - and this is another field that clearly has established barriers to entry that make it more difficult for foreign firms or lawyers to compete. Elite science and engineering programs, on the other hand, seem to be going in the opposite direction from the AMA and ABA - the graduate schools in these fields are willing to enroll a majority of international students, and the US senate is talking about "stapling a green card" to every graduate degree in a STEM field (but not to every JD, MD, or DDS). And even if they did include the professional degrees, the respective professional organizations are empowered by the US government to severely limit how and where they can practice. All that said, I think this simply lends more support to my original point, which is that US citizens have discovered that the fields that require heavy science and math often put them in the path of competing with very talented immigrants and international students, whereas fields that require less math are more lucrative and offer a safe haven from international competition. It may not be a free market at work, but it clearly is a rational and expected response to market conditions created by government policy. In short, if you're a very talented US citizen who wants to maximize the return on the effort you put into education, it is rational to get a little bit good at math, but there isn't much of a premium on getting really good at math relative to what the professions offer. If you're an international student who aspires to immigrate to the US, on the other hand, getting really good at intensive math and science fields is a high probability way to gain access to the US market.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    Medicine is profitable because it is potentially ~extortive, even correcting for government regulation. ie, "your money, or your life"? is the negotiating dynamic. Note this is also historically why Lawyers ("your money, or your life"?) and investment bankers ("your money, or your life/company"?) are also highly remunerative careers, at least traditionally.[1,2] _______ [1] It helps also that in addition to negotiations under proximate duress, there is a highly exclusionary hiring process (a/k/a guilds or qualifications to be admitted into "the professions" etc). [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=hold+up+problem https://www.google.com/search?q=hold+up+problem

by geebee 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago

The reason why pay is so high in the medical field is because it is highly government regulated, and is an anomaly in that regard. Not only is the number of medical students admitted each year tightly regulated (reducing the supply), the costs of medical treatment are paid indirectly (via insurance companies), obscuring costs and making it easier to raise rates. If regulations were loosened, you'd end up with a similar situation to what you see with lawyers now - a lot of students graduating from law school and finding out that most lawyers these days don't actually make that much (or can't even find a job).

geebee 14y ago
I agree, and the "cartel" that you've described carefully limits the number of foreign physicians who can compete with Americans. I agree with you about law at the middle to low end, but clearly the very elite schools still often lead to lucrative careers - and this is another field that clearly has established barriers to entry that make it more difficult for foreign firms or lawyers to compete. Elite science and engineering programs, on the other hand, seem to be going in the opposite direction from the AMA and ABA - the graduate schools in these fields are willing to enroll a majority of international students, and the US senate is talking about "stapling a green card" to every graduate degree in a STEM field (but not to every JD, MD, or DDS). And even if they did include the professional degrees, the respective professional organizations are empowered by the US government to severely limit how and where they can practice. All that said, I think this simply lends more support to my original point, which is that US citizens have discovered that the fields that require heavy science and math often put them in the path of competing with very talented immigrants and international students, whereas fields that require less math are more lucrative and offer a safe haven from international competition. It may not be a free market at work, but it clearly is a rational and expected response to market conditions created by government policy. In short, if you're a very talented US citizen who wants to maximize the return on the effort you put into education, it is rational to get a little bit good at math, but there isn't much of a premium on getting really good at math relative to what the professions offer. If you're an international student who aspires to immigrate to the US, on the other hand, getting really good at intensive math and science fields is a high probability way to gain access to the US market.
- 001sky 14y ago
  Medicine is profitable because it is potentially ~extortive, even correcting for government regulation. ie, "your money, or your life"? is the negotiating dynamic. Note this is also historically why Lawyers ("your money, or your life"?) and investment bankers ("your money, or your life/company"?) are also highly remunerative careers, at least traditionally.[1,2] _______ [1] It helps also that in addition to negotiations under proximate duress, there is a highly exclusionary hiring process (a/k/a guilds or qualifications to be admitted into "the professions" etc). [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=hold+up+problem https://www.google.com/search?q=hold+up+problem