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Interesting they cite Finland and then immediately claim the answer is more schooling. That's not how Finland sees it. In Finland school starts at age 7 as it i

Interesting they cite Finland and then immediately claim the answer is more schooling. That's not how Finland sees it. In Finland school starts at age 7 as it is considered that before 7 you should be playing, not bored with academics. For those who wish it, a year of "preschool" is available at age 6, the same year the US starts first grade after a year of what is often mandatory Kindergarten, which is now academic and has homework in much of the US, and which follows 1-3 years of preschool and daycare. There is pressure to make preschool academic as well in the US. Also in Finland, mandatory school lasts 9 years, not 13 years, and you're done at age 16. If you wish, you can at your choice then continue either with college prep or vocational finishing school for three years at no cost with content comparable to a good american community college. Many systems that do better than the US have kids in school for fewer hours, have less bureaucracy, and cost less to operate than american schools, yet more hours and more spending are always given as the only possible answers to america's supposed school problems, along with dismissing the things that do work in the US, namely homeschooling and private schools which get much better results at a lower cost.

naner 14y ago
I always wonder if problems like these are exacerbated by our (comparatively) massive population in the US. We have somewhere around 311 million people to Finland's 5 million and we are all spread out over 50 states. Is it any surprise we can't manage a nationwide school system well?
- byoung2 14y ago
  The US is also more ethnically diverse than Finland, which I'm sure impacts teaching.
- TruthElixirX 14y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem Its a well known problem.
BrianEatWorld 14y ago
Really interesting point about Finland. Has there been any research into what aspects of the system are most effective? Anecdotally, I wonder if this solves the story of the "smart" kids who are bored and thus under perform due to a lack of challenge. By condensing the time to learn, I could see having more focused curriculum with less review between years. Also, by having children start later, it might generate more natural curiosity, rather than spoon feeding knowledge.
roc 14y ago
Last I dug into the studies, the 'problems' in US education seemed most-tightly correlated to social problems revolving around social-economic class, available services, etc. Which is to say: the low-scoring kids in the US are living in poverty, living with high-crime neighborhoods, living in one-parent homes, don't have access to health-care, may not have food security, etc. The schools have zero control over those factors. Yet the "more school" they can throw at these kids, the more they can isolate them from those factors. That is: extending the school day to the point that it becomes reasonable to offer breakfast provides an opportunity to actually get breakfast into these kids. Which does impact test scores. Providing "study hour" type classes after a traditional school day not only provides a safe and equipped place for these kids to actually do their homework, it also keeps them off the streets and lowers the risks that come from no child care. And that also does impact test scores. So there's this really horrible bind that American educators find themselves in. They know damn well that more hours of instruction doesn't really increase test scores. But they also know the best approach available to them -- to improve not only scores, but outcomes -- is to trump up "more hours" to ameliorate the risks and challenges facing these children that society-at-large is refusing to address.
- king_jester 14y ago
  More school doesn't isolate people from poverty, crime, health care access issues, food security problems, etc. No matter how long the school day is, those schools exist in communities with those issues and the staff, parents, and children in those communities have to deal with the realities of those problems every day. > That is: extending the school day to the point that it becomes reasonable to offer breakfast provides an opportunity to actually get breakfast into these kids. Which does impact test scores. Breakfast food programs originate with the Black Panther Party running breakfast programs for poor children, not with school systems. > Providing "study hour" type classes after a traditional school day not only provides a safe and equipped place for these kids to actually do their homework, it also keeps them off the streets and lowers the risks that come from no child care. And that also does impact test scores. The solution to this is to provide access to child care in a way that is useful for the community, not provide de-facto child care by keeping children in school as long as possible each day. > They know damn well that more hours of instruction doesn't really increase test scores. But they also know the best approach available to them This is a contradiction, if hours of instruction don't increase test scores, then the approach of increasing the length of the school day will have nothing to do with providing better test score outcomes. Also, test scores are not a reliable way to gauge student learning and success. You are right that social instability and poverty play a big part in keeping US education from being successful, both those issues need to be addressed in a direct way rather than try to provide band aid fixes via a school system that already does things in a way that does not work for a substantial amount of the students in the country.
debacle 14y ago
> fewer hours, have less bureaucracy, and cost less to operate Sounds like the US healthcare system, tax system, etc.

naner 14y ago

I always wonder if problems like these are exacerbated by our (comparatively) massive population in the US. We have somewhere around 311 million people to Finland's 5 million and we are all spread out over 50 states. Is it any surprise we can't manage a nationwide school system well?

byoung2 14y ago
The US is also more ethnically diverse than Finland, which I'm sure impacts teaching.
TruthElixirX 14y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem Its a well known problem.

BrianEatWorld 14y ago

Really interesting point about Finland. Has there been any research into what aspects of the system are most effective? Anecdotally, I wonder if this solves the story of the "smart" kids who are bored and thus under perform due to a lack of challenge. By condensing the time to learn, I could see having more focused curriculum with less review between years. Also, by having children start later, it might generate more natural curiosity, rather than spoon feeding knowledge.

roc 14y ago

Last I dug into the studies, the 'problems' in US education seemed most-tightly correlated to social problems revolving around social-economic class, available services, etc. Which is to say: the low-scoring kids in the US are living in poverty, living with high-crime neighborhoods, living in one-parent homes, don't have access to health-care, may not have food security, etc. The schools have zero control over those factors. Yet the "more school" they can throw at these kids, the more they can isolate them from those factors. That is: extending the school day to the point that it becomes reasonable to offer breakfast provides an opportunity to actually get breakfast into these kids. Which does impact test scores. Providing "study hour" type classes after a traditional school day not only provides a safe and equipped place for these kids to actually do their homework, it also keeps them off the streets and lowers the risks that come from no child care. And that also does impact test scores. So there's this really horrible bind that American educators find themselves in. They know damn well that more hours of instruction doesn't really increase test scores. But they also know the best approach available to them -- to improve not only scores, but outcomes -- is to trump up "more hours" to ameliorate the risks and challenges facing these children that society-at-large is refusing to address.

king_jester 14y ago
More school doesn't isolate people from poverty, crime, health care access issues, food security problems, etc. No matter how long the school day is, those schools exist in communities with those issues and the staff, parents, and children in those communities have to deal with the realities of those problems every day. > That is: extending the school day to the point that it becomes reasonable to offer breakfast provides an opportunity to actually get breakfast into these kids. Which does impact test scores. Breakfast food programs originate with the Black Panther Party running breakfast programs for poor children, not with school systems. > Providing "study hour" type classes after a traditional school day not only provides a safe and equipped place for these kids to actually do their homework, it also keeps them off the streets and lowers the risks that come from no child care. And that also does impact test scores. The solution to this is to provide access to child care in a way that is useful for the community, not provide de-facto child care by keeping children in school as long as possible each day. > They know damn well that more hours of instruction doesn't really increase test scores. But they also know the best approach available to them This is a contradiction, if hours of instruction don't increase test scores, then the approach of increasing the length of the school day will have nothing to do with providing better test score outcomes. Also, test scores are not a reliable way to gauge student learning and success. You are right that social instability and poverty play a big part in keeping US education from being successful, both those issues need to be addressed in a direct way rather than try to provide band aid fixes via a school system that already does things in a way that does not work for a substantial amount of the students in the country.

debacle 14y ago

> fewer hours, have less bureaucracy, and cost less to operate Sounds like the US healthcare system, tax system, etc.