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The thing that irks me about the cost of college isn't that it costs a lot, it isn't ideal that the cost can be so prohibitive but if someone can really get gr

The thing that irks me about the cost of college isn't that it costs a lot, it isn't ideal that the cost can be so prohibitive but if someone can really get great value from college it can be worth it. The thing that irks me is that from a very young age we're told that if you want to achieve something in life, if you want to be someone then you NEED to go to college and if you don't you're a failure and you're destined to work in McDonalds until the day that you die. This means that people who won't get any real value from college end up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (that they don't have and don't understand the repercussions of spending because they're a teenager when they commit to it) and become at a very big disadvantage in life because that's what they were told they had to do.

Shivetya 14y ago
Well colleges had good marketing. With the near guarantee that anyone could get a loan they were pretty much set to make money. All they needed was a way to make you feel obligated to get that loan and give them the money.
michaelochurch 14y ago
Higher ed. == socially acceptable generational wealth transfer that doesn't involve someone knocking off.
- spacemanaki 14y ago
  Could you expound on that a little? Are you referring to parents of college students transferring wealth by paying for tuition? Maybe I'm just being dense but I can't quite figure out what you meant.
sharkweek 14y ago
I really wish we put more focus on discovering strengths from a young age and developing upon those in students. College really is not for everyone. A friend of mine in high school wasn't the brightest guy when it came to the core classes, but was hands down THE guru in auto shop. The guy could disassemble an engine entirely and put it back together squeaky clean before he could even drive a car himself while I would (and still do) struggle to even change the oil. He's now doing just fine for himself working as a manager at a local auto repair shop, and will most likely be happy doing that the rest of his life.
- donniezazen 14y ago
  When most folks are not interested in education early on and do it for purposes other than learning itself tells something about our society and education system.
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  What's interesting to me about stories like that is, is he realizing his full potential by doing auto-repair the rest of his life, or could he have done more in a system like Germany's that might have channeled him into an apprenticeship at a BMW or Audi factory? The US educational progression has a strong bias toward one type of intelligence, and seems to more easily sideline people like your friend.
  - sharkweek 14y ago
    Great question -- I often wonder if the repeated "failure" in the core classes was also discouraging in being more ambitious. Obviously I'm not going to advocate for less math/science/english for someone like him, especially through at least high school, but I can't imagine it did wonders for his confidence repeatedly being required to attend after school tutoring, having to get his parents to sign failed tests, etc.
    - SkyMarshal 14y ago
      Yes, really good point about confidence and ambition too, definitely another key aspect to this issue.
rmrfrmrf 14y ago
If you're not getting value out of college, you're doing something wrong. College is a resource, not a teaching facility, and the amount you put in is directly related to how much you get out of it. There are too many people, in my opinion, who take the "$120k for a piece of paper" expression seriously and miss out on the vast number of opportunities that one gets from 4+ years of uninterrupted study.
- rthomas6 14y ago
  This only works if you have an idea of what you want out of college. The same group of people that are told they need college to be successful are often the people that can only take what is given to them, since they probably don't have a strong internal drive to be there. 4+ years of uninterrupted study requires a deep interest in some area, and a personal drive to carry out that study.
  - therandomguy 14y ago
    If you don't have an idea of what you want out of college it is best to figure it out fast. And even if you don't have an idea you are better off in college meeting a whole bunch of people and attempting to figure it out.
- freyr 14y ago
  There are actually a variety of reasons why people don't get value out of college, and it's not always because they're doing something wrong. For example, most young people are told to set their sights on college. Realistically, most young people are not suited for "4+ years of uninterrupted study." This might not seem obvious if you took AP/honors classes your whole life; in that case, the mean is probably much lower than you've been conditioned to expect.
roc 14y ago
Haven't studies shown that even subsistence farmers do better with education? As far as I've read, more education is good for anyone who can afford it. (Even at its inflated prices, a college degree remains a good investment for most.) It seems to me the real problem is that most people who'd do just as well with a smaller university education are paying 5x as much for a big/name school education. Which, for those taking on debt, is hardly optimal. And their willingness to do this is what drives the prestige/price bubble. So, really, the correctable social prejudice is not breaking "everyone should go to college" [1], it's breaking "small school education is inferior to big/name school education". [2] [1] Though that could certainly stand a weakening and reformation to "most people should do post-high school education", with a heavy dose of de-stigmatization for trade schools, community college and the like. [2] That prejudice is undoubtedly true of a minority of places and programs, but rarely; and extremely so in the case of undergrad programs.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  College != Education. Travel can be education. So can reading. In fact we should always be learning something new. You don't need a university for that.
  - roc 14y ago
    Sure. I agree with that general notion. I'm just of the mind that many more people will get an education in a directed experience than in a self-taught manner. It's rather like the famous anecdote of the would-be musician who asks a famous self-taught master how they should approach becoming a musician. Paraphrasing: Aspirant: "How do I go about becoming a great musician?" Master: "Go to school." Aspirant: "But you never went to school." Master: "I never had to ask anyone 'how', either". Which is to say: those who are capable and willing to do self-directed learning will do so regardless. For anyone who seeks/takes advice on how to proceed "go to college" remains the best answer.
  - therandomguy 14y ago
    Education is not enough. It needs to be converted into "knowledge that can be applied". That is the part that college handles. I would much rather go to a surgeon that has gone to college/univ over someone who has read all about surgery on wikipedia during his travels to Thailand.
pdog 14y ago
This article is about the cost of an MBA, which is a master's degree (in business administration), at a very prestigious university. So you're kind of hijacking the thread when you bring up the cost of a college education. There's no doubt that universities represent declining value for money to their students[1][2]. But the reason we tell young people that they should go to college if they want to achieve something in life is because higher education, particularly at the top universities, remains a great investment. [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-america... [2] - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4856452 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4856452
therandomguy 14y ago
Besides the edge cases and exceptions what you are told from a very young age is accurate. You can look at the income data for people who have univ degrees vs. those who don't.
moocow01 14y ago
The education industry today is 100% a business and institutions are run more or less like corporations (this wasn't so true many years ago and is a horrible model for education for general society). It is their incentive to continue perpetuating the correlation between college and career success... and its not some sort of grand lie in many cases - there are many indicators that show its becoming increasingly important to have a college degree. They do have a coming problem though. With the escalation in price and the well known stories of college grads moving back in with their parents, their next set of customers are starting to question if college is for them. Essentially the education industry has started to eat its young and does so even more every time prices rise above reasonable amounts. The other thing to consider is that the cost for college has risen much faster than the label price. Given that most students need loans, when you factor in interest paid and the long term rise in interest rates - the cost of education has REALLY gone up... much more than is reported. At some point things will correct - either the government will step in (unlikely) or there will be a fall out when inevitably their customers realize that education is more of a liability than an asset.
- sjg007 14y ago
  Something like 56% of college students don't complete. Also many take more than 4 years, so the first wave of value is finishing in less than 4 years. Universities may reduce costs by dropping non-essential non-major classes.
sjg007 14y ago
I think a gap year between high school and college can do some good. Also between college and grad school.

Shivetya 14y ago

Well colleges had good marketing. With the near guarantee that anyone could get a loan they were pretty much set to make money. All they needed was a way to make you feel obligated to get that loan and give them the money.

michaelochurch 14y ago

Higher ed. == socially acceptable generational wealth transfer that doesn't involve someone knocking off.

spacemanaki 14y ago
Could you expound on that a little? Are you referring to parents of college students transferring wealth by paying for tuition? Maybe I'm just being dense but I can't quite figure out what you meant.

sharkweek 14y ago

I really wish we put more focus on discovering strengths from a young age and developing upon those in students. College really is not for everyone. A friend of mine in high school wasn't the brightest guy when it came to the core classes, but was hands down THE guru in auto shop. The guy could disassemble an engine entirely and put it back together squeaky clean before he could even drive a car himself while I would (and still do) struggle to even change the oil. He's now doing just fine for himself working as a manager at a local auto repair shop, and will most likely be happy doing that the rest of his life.

donniezazen 14y ago
When most folks are not interested in education early on and do it for purposes other than learning itself tells something about our society and education system.
SkyMarshal 14y ago
What's interesting to me about stories like that is, is he realizing his full potential by doing auto-repair the rest of his life, or could he have done more in a system like Germany's that might have channeled him into an apprenticeship at a BMW or Audi factory? The US educational progression has a strong bias toward one type of intelligence, and seems to more easily sideline people like your friend.
- sharkweek 14y ago
  Great question -- I often wonder if the repeated "failure" in the core classes was also discouraging in being more ambitious. Obviously I'm not going to advocate for less math/science/english for someone like him, especially through at least high school, but I can't imagine it did wonders for his confidence repeatedly being required to attend after school tutoring, having to get his parents to sign failed tests, etc.
  - SkyMarshal 14y ago
    Yes, really good point about confidence and ambition too, definitely another key aspect to this issue.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago

If you're not getting value out of college, you're doing something wrong. College is a resource, not a teaching facility, and the amount you put in is directly related to how much you get out of it. There are too many people, in my opinion, who take the "$120k for a piece of paper" expression seriously and miss out on the vast number of opportunities that one gets from 4+ years of uninterrupted study.

rthomas6 14y ago
This only works if you have an idea of what you want out of college. The same group of people that are told they need college to be successful are often the people that can only take what is given to them, since they probably don't have a strong internal drive to be there. 4+ years of uninterrupted study requires a deep interest in some area, and a personal drive to carry out that study.
- therandomguy 14y ago
  If you don't have an idea of what you want out of college it is best to figure it out fast. And even if you don't have an idea you are better off in college meeting a whole bunch of people and attempting to figure it out.
freyr 14y ago
There are actually a variety of reasons why people don't get value out of college, and it's not always because they're doing something wrong. For example, most young people are told to set their sights on college. Realistically, most young people are not suited for "4+ years of uninterrupted study." This might not seem obvious if you took AP/honors classes your whole life; in that case, the mean is probably much lower than you've been conditioned to expect.

roc 14y ago

Haven't studies shown that even subsistence farmers do better with education? As far as I've read, more education is good for anyone who can afford it. (Even at its inflated prices, a college degree remains a good investment for most.) It seems to me the real problem is that most people who'd do just as well with a smaller university education are paying 5x as much for a big/name school education. Which, for those taking on debt, is hardly optimal. And their willingness to do this is what drives the prestige/price bubble. So, really, the correctable social prejudice is not breaking "everyone should go to college" [1], it's breaking "small school education is inferior to big/name school education". [2] [1] Though that could certainly stand a weakening and reformation to "most people should do post-high school education", with a heavy dose of de-stigmatization for trade schools, community college and the like. [2] That prejudice is undoubtedly true of a minority of places and programs, but rarely; and extremely so in the case of undergrad programs.

run4yourlives 14y ago
College != Education. Travel can be education. So can reading. In fact we should always be learning something new. You don't need a university for that.
- roc 14y ago
  Sure. I agree with that general notion. I'm just of the mind that many more people will get an education in a directed experience than in a self-taught manner. It's rather like the famous anecdote of the would-be musician who asks a famous self-taught master how they should approach becoming a musician. Paraphrasing: Aspirant: "How do I go about becoming a great musician?" Master: "Go to school." Aspirant: "But you never went to school." Master: "I never had to ask anyone 'how', either". Which is to say: those who are capable and willing to do self-directed learning will do so regardless. For anyone who seeks/takes advice on how to proceed "go to college" remains the best answer.
- therandomguy 14y ago
  Education is not enough. It needs to be converted into "knowledge that can be applied". That is the part that college handles. I would much rather go to a surgeon that has gone to college/univ over someone who has read all about surgery on wikipedia during his travels to Thailand.

pdog 14y ago

This article is about the cost of an MBA, which is a master's degree (in business administration), at a very prestigious university. So you're kind of hijacking the thread when you bring up the cost of a college education. There's no doubt that universities represent declining value for money to their students[1][2]. But the reason we tell young people that they should go to college if they want to achieve something in life is because higher education, particularly at the top universities, remains a great investment. [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-america... [2] - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4856452 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4856452

therandomguy 14y ago

Besides the edge cases and exceptions what you are told from a very young age is accurate. You can look at the income data for people who have univ degrees vs. those who don't.

moocow01 14y ago

The education industry today is 100% a business and institutions are run more or less like corporations (this wasn't so true many years ago and is a horrible model for education for general society). It is their incentive to continue perpetuating the correlation between college and career success... and its not some sort of grand lie in many cases - there are many indicators that show its becoming increasingly important to have a college degree. They do have a coming problem though. With the escalation in price and the well known stories of college grads moving back in with their parents, their next set of customers are starting to question if college is for them. Essentially the education industry has started to eat its young and does so even more every time prices rise above reasonable amounts. The other thing to consider is that the cost for college has risen much faster than the label price. Given that most students need loans, when you factor in interest paid and the long term rise in interest rates - the cost of education has REALLY gone up... much more than is reported. At some point things will correct - either the government will step in (unlikely) or there will be a fall out when inevitably their customers realize that education is more of a liability than an asset.

sjg007 14y ago
Something like 56% of college students don't complete. Also many take more than 4 years, so the first wave of value is finishing in less than 4 years. Universities may reduce costs by dropping non-essential non-major classes.

sjg007 14y ago

I think a gap year between high school and college can do some good. Also between college and grad school.