4 ms·

We just had our first bear crossing on a wildlife here in the Northwest. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/first-black-bear-uses-the-snoqualmie-pass-i-

by ynac 2mo ago

We just had our first bear crossing on a wildlife here in the Northwest. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/first-black-bear-uses-the-snoqualmie-pass-i-90-animal-bridge/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/first-black-bear-u... I know these things are more complicated than they seem at first, but whenever these stories surface, I immediately go to an idealistic childhood cartoon land where we have a prime directive that tells us to go forth(!) and watch out for each other!

vjvjvjvjghv 2mo ago
I always wonder how the world would look if the bible had said "Respect the earth and all living beings" instead of “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion…"
- nvarsj 2mo ago
  Well no king would ever accept and propagate that religion.
- lotsofpulp 2mo ago
  The tribe with the bible that directed to multiply would have conquered the tribe with the bible that directed respect the earth and all living beings because back then, might was proportional to population.
  - mr_toad 2mo ago
    “ It has not occurred to you that your ancestors were survivors and that the survival itself sometimes involved savage decisions, a kind of wanton brutality which civilized humankind works very hard to suppress. What price will you pay for that suppression? Will you accept your own extinction?” - Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
    - gambiting 2mo ago
      Which is kinda hilarious given that despite being called a tyrant, Leto II had basically created a post scarcity society that was almost entirely castrated of violence or capacity for it. He kept chastising people for that desire to tame those base instincts but he was doing the exact same thing. It's just a funny thing to quote given the context of his character.
    - user- 2mo ago
      better to attribute it to God Emperor Leto Atreides II , not Frank Herbet the author
    - underlipton 2mo ago
      The same can be said for moments where avoiding savage decisions resulted in survival; when oblivion was the alternative, and where it was the result of humanity's capacity for compassion and cooperation overcoming "civilized" humankind's tendency towards a banal and unthinking brutality. Remember that, multiple times in the past half-century, the protocol was to launch all ICBMs and pray.
  - Etheryte 2mo ago
    [dead]
- Jensson 2mo ago
  It would look like India.
- infogulch 2mo ago
  "be fruitful" and "replenish the earth" is already aligned As for "subdue", ask anyone maintaining a large garden how much they have to work to keep it from reverting back to a wilderness. Gardening is choosing which species stay and which are forcibly removed and optimizing the environment to enable your chosen species to thrive. If the words "subdue" and "dominion" freak you out, pick your brains up off the floor and go touch grass. Western civilization has decided that it wants to keep the primate species and is dissatisfied when they become roadkill, so it altered the environment to enable the chosen species to thrive. This article is a gardening success story. Gardening requires dominion. We have dominion over the primates and we have chosen to be benevolent with that dominion.
  - rbanffy 2mo ago
    > so it altered the environment The motorway was not a natural occurrence, and neither cars or trucks evolved naturally. Humans went there and installed a limited fix for the destruction they caused in the first place.
    - infogulch 2mo ago
      I put a path in my garden so I can continue to maintain the garden, and walk around and enjoy it. But oh no, my daisies are wilting because they're too close to the path. So I adjust the path, raise the bed a little bit, and add a border, and they're happy after a little bit of water. Totally normal gardener behavior.
    - wredcoll 2mo ago
      Are volcanos natural occurrences? Meteors? Earthquakes floods and fires? Are humans natural? It's a pointless distinction, "nature" is plenty fully of destruction and extinction without humans ever being involved.
      - rbanffy 2mo ago
        I’m sure the current mass extinction, which seems to have started at the same time a climate change, which itself started more or less when we learned how to dump unprecedented amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere are causally related.
- harimau777 2mo ago
  A lot of Christians argue that it does say exactly that. In Genesis 2:15, God tells Adam to care for the planet: The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. Of course fundamentalists tend not to see it that way.
  - echelon_musk 2mo ago
    > Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. John 2:15
    - hoten 2mo ago
      (that's 1 John 2:15 - John 2:15 is the one where Jesus attacks the money changers) The next line is critical for context, as it defines what "things in the world" means. > [...] For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. Seems clear to me this isn't about creation (ie not saying don't cherish nature / animals).
  - RunSet 2mo ago
    A lot of Christians have also argued that god would not allow a species he created to go extinct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#History_of_scientific_understanding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#History_of_scientif... So perhaps holy books are not the best manuals for environmental stewardship. Genesis also gives the impression that plant life primarily exists for humans to eat. Humans don't need any encouragement to favor edible plants over inedible, to judge by their tendency to cut down forests to grow crops. "Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food."
- hombre_fatal 2mo ago
  There are infinite alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral, like remove the parts where innocent people are punished on someone else’s behalf (raped, stoned, killed) or commanded to enslaved others and take virgins as the spoils of war. Thankfully over the centuries some people have used their human moral intuitions to gloss over some of the worst parts. But would’ve been much nicer to not have those parts at all.
  - dylan604 2mo ago
    > alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral this is brilliant. The book that is supposed to the be the word on morality needs edits. I can hear the religious right gathering their pitchforks and tiki lights now. It's a perfect book written by the almighty. But for those that don't drink that particular kool-aid it's a self evident observation since it's a book of cherry picked stories by a group of people to push their agenda.
    - smj-edison 2mo ago
      Depends how you interpret it tbh. At least in my tradition the focus is on seeing the good, bad, and ugly of history. There's many bible stories that are more cautionary tales than role models. Now to be fair, there's also examples of God (as portrayed by the writers) being vindictive and harsh. I don't have great answers for that, but I do wonder how much it is seeing through their perspective of the situation and how much it was God. (I obviously come at this as a believer). As to being the only moral text... I certainly hope it's not, because we've learned a lot since then, and I hope what's considered truth can expand beyond one book. EDIT: not to dismiss your points, just to say that some of us view it in a more nuanced way.
  - haunter 2mo ago
    tbh that’s my biggest problem with it, the cherry picking. Either everything is true or nothing, but once they start cherry picking the whole thing falls apart step by step
- HiPhish 2mo ago
  All living being want to literally eat you in one way or another. You can respect the earth, but first you have to subdue it and have dominion, otherwise it will kill you.
  - embedding-shape 2mo ago
    Not at all true, plenty of herbivores out there that doesn't care for humans as nutrition. Plenty of cultures out there living side by side with earth without subjugating it, and it still hasn't killed those people.
    - chmod775 2mo ago
      Most omnivores and carnivores won't touch humans with a ten foot pole either. But that's because they're either too smart to try or we have altered their genetic makeup by culling anyone who strayed too close.
      - embedding-shape 2mo ago
        For better or worse, not that many people meet hungry carnivores vs "I could go without human for now" carnivores. They're generally kind of risk averse until hunger strikes, then any existing reason/logic (since you claimed "too smart") goes out the window.
- BolsunBacset 2mo ago
  In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the environment is not a resource, nor is it a god. It is a sacrament. A tangible vehicle of God's uncreated grace. Your status is that of a royal priest who stands between heaven and earth. You are to "subdue" the chaos within your own soul first, and then, with humility and awe, lead all of creation in a perpetual song of thanksgiving, protecting it as you would protect the chalice on an altar. To harm the earth is, quite literally, a sacrilege.
  - apple4ever 2mo ago
    Thank you for pointing this out, as Eastern Orthodox Christian.
- constantius 2mo ago
  As another sibling points out, creation before the fall, so.the animals and humans in the garden of eden, were vegan. There is also a theory that Jesus was vegan and a belief that Christians should be too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism#Biblical_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism#Biblic...
  - aziaziazi 2mo ago
    I was introduced to this idea by the excellent documentary https://christspiracy.com/ https://christspiracy.com/ Video is an interesting format but I'm glad you shared that page, text is more appropriate to dive into a subject.
    - constantius 2mo ago
      > Is there a spiritual way to kill an animal? How would Jesus kill an animal? Amazing question. I'm not spiritual, but regularly debate this topic with others (including here): this will be a useful way of approaching it. Thanks for posting the link!
    - constantius 2mo ago
      Bought the documentary and will be buying it for some friends, thanks!
      - aziaziazi 2mo ago
        Oh great! That will lead to many interesting conversations!

by ynac 2mo ago

vjvjvjvjghv 2mo ago

I always wonder how the world would look if the bible had said "Respect the earth and all living beings" instead of “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion…"

nvarsj 2mo ago
Well no king would ever accept and propagate that religion.
lotsofpulp 2mo ago
The tribe with the bible that directed to multiply would have conquered the tribe with the bible that directed respect the earth and all living beings because back then, might was proportional to population.
- mr_toad 2mo ago
  “ It has not occurred to you that your ancestors were survivors and that the survival itself sometimes involved savage decisions, a kind of wanton brutality which civilized humankind works very hard to suppress. What price will you pay for that suppression? Will you accept your own extinction?” - Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
  - gambiting 2mo ago
    Which is kinda hilarious given that despite being called a tyrant, Leto II had basically created a post scarcity society that was almost entirely castrated of violence or capacity for it. He kept chastising people for that desire to tame those base instincts but he was doing the exact same thing. It's just a funny thing to quote given the context of his character.
  - user- 2mo ago
    better to attribute it to God Emperor Leto Atreides II , not Frank Herbet the author
  - underlipton 2mo ago
    The same can be said for moments where avoiding savage decisions resulted in survival; when oblivion was the alternative, and where it was the result of humanity's capacity for compassion and cooperation overcoming "civilized" humankind's tendency towards a banal and unthinking brutality. Remember that, multiple times in the past half-century, the protocol was to launch all ICBMs and pray.
- Etheryte 2mo ago
  [dead]
Jensson 2mo ago
It would look like India.
infogulch 2mo ago
"be fruitful" and "replenish the earth" is already aligned As for "subdue", ask anyone maintaining a large garden how much they have to work to keep it from reverting back to a wilderness. Gardening is choosing which species stay and which are forcibly removed and optimizing the environment to enable your chosen species to thrive. If the words "subdue" and "dominion" freak you out, pick your brains up off the floor and go touch grass. Western civilization has decided that it wants to keep the primate species and is dissatisfied when they become roadkill, so it altered the environment to enable the chosen species to thrive. This article is a gardening success story. Gardening requires dominion. We have dominion over the primates and we have chosen to be benevolent with that dominion.
- rbanffy 2mo ago
  > so it altered the environment The motorway was not a natural occurrence, and neither cars or trucks evolved naturally. Humans went there and installed a limited fix for the destruction they caused in the first place.
  - infogulch 2mo ago
    I put a path in my garden so I can continue to maintain the garden, and walk around and enjoy it. But oh no, my daisies are wilting because they're too close to the path. So I adjust the path, raise the bed a little bit, and add a border, and they're happy after a little bit of water. Totally normal gardener behavior.
  - wredcoll 2mo ago
    Are volcanos natural occurrences? Meteors? Earthquakes floods and fires? Are humans natural? It's a pointless distinction, "nature" is plenty fully of destruction and extinction without humans ever being involved.
    - rbanffy 2mo ago
      I’m sure the current mass extinction, which seems to have started at the same time a climate change, which itself started more or less when we learned how to dump unprecedented amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere are causally related.
harimau777 2mo ago
A lot of Christians argue that it does say exactly that. In Genesis 2:15, God tells Adam to care for the planet: The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. Of course fundamentalists tend not to see it that way.
- echelon_musk 2mo ago
  > Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. John 2:15
  - hoten 2mo ago
    (that's 1 John 2:15 - John 2:15 is the one where Jesus attacks the money changers) The next line is critical for context, as it defines what "things in the world" means. > [...] For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. Seems clear to me this isn't about creation (ie not saying don't cherish nature / animals).
- RunSet 2mo ago
  A lot of Christians have also argued that god would not allow a species he created to go extinct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#History_of_scientific_understanding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#History_of_scientif... So perhaps holy books are not the best manuals for environmental stewardship. Genesis also gives the impression that plant life primarily exists for humans to eat. Humans don't need any encouragement to favor edible plants over inedible, to judge by their tendency to cut down forests to grow crops. "Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food."
hombre_fatal 2mo ago
There are infinite alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral, like remove the parts where innocent people are punished on someone else’s behalf (raped, stoned, killed) or commanded to enslaved others and take virgins as the spoils of war. Thankfully over the centuries some people have used their human moral intuitions to gloss over some of the worst parts. But would’ve been much nicer to not have those parts at all.
- dylan604 2mo ago
  > alterations you can make to the bible to make it more moral this is brilliant. The book that is supposed to the be the word on morality needs edits. I can hear the religious right gathering their pitchforks and tiki lights now. It's a perfect book written by the almighty. But for those that don't drink that particular kool-aid it's a self evident observation since it's a book of cherry picked stories by a group of people to push their agenda.
  - smj-edison 2mo ago
    Depends how you interpret it tbh. At least in my tradition the focus is on seeing the good, bad, and ugly of history. There's many bible stories that are more cautionary tales than role models. Now to be fair, there's also examples of God (as portrayed by the writers) being vindictive and harsh. I don't have great answers for that, but I do wonder how much it is seeing through their perspective of the situation and how much it was God. (I obviously come at this as a believer). As to being the only moral text... I certainly hope it's not, because we've learned a lot since then, and I hope what's considered truth can expand beyond one book. EDIT: not to dismiss your points, just to say that some of us view it in a more nuanced way.
- haunter 2mo ago
  tbh that’s my biggest problem with it, the cherry picking. Either everything is true or nothing, but once they start cherry picking the whole thing falls apart step by step
HiPhish 2mo ago
All living being want to literally eat you in one way or another. You can respect the earth, but first you have to subdue it and have dominion, otherwise it will kill you.
- embedding-shape 2mo ago
  Not at all true, plenty of herbivores out there that doesn't care for humans as nutrition. Plenty of cultures out there living side by side with earth without subjugating it, and it still hasn't killed those people.
  - chmod775 2mo ago
    Most omnivores and carnivores won't touch humans with a ten foot pole either. But that's because they're either too smart to try or we have altered their genetic makeup by culling anyone who strayed too close.
    - embedding-shape 2mo ago
      For better or worse, not that many people meet hungry carnivores vs "I could go without human for now" carnivores. They're generally kind of risk averse until hunger strikes, then any existing reason/logic (since you claimed "too smart") goes out the window.
BolsunBacset 2mo ago
In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the environment is not a resource, nor is it a god. It is a sacrament. A tangible vehicle of God's uncreated grace. Your status is that of a royal priest who stands between heaven and earth. You are to "subdue" the chaos within your own soul first, and then, with humility and awe, lead all of creation in a perpetual song of thanksgiving, protecting it as you would protect the chalice on an altar. To harm the earth is, quite literally, a sacrilege.
- apple4ever 2mo ago
  Thank you for pointing this out, as Eastern Orthodox Christian.
constantius 2mo ago
As another sibling points out, creation before the fall, so.the animals and humans in the garden of eden, were vegan. There is also a theory that Jesus was vegan and a belief that Christians should be too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism#Biblical_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism#Biblic...
- aziaziazi 2mo ago
  I was introduced to this idea by the excellent documentary https://christspiracy.com/ https://christspiracy.com/ Video is an interesting format but I'm glad you shared that page, text is more appropriate to dive into a subject.
  - constantius 2mo ago
    > Is there a spiritual way to kill an animal? How would Jesus kill an animal? Amazing question. I'm not spiritual, but regularly debate this topic with others (including here): this will be a useful way of approaching it. Thanks for posting the link!
  - constantius 2mo ago
    Bought the documentary and will be buying it for some friends, thanks!
    - aziaziazi 2mo ago
      Oh great! That will lead to many interesting conversations!