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Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? And if we wanted to help another country, working with the international community shou

Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? And if we wanted to help another country, working with the international community should be the only approach we take. We've spent many decades overthrowing countries to what end? Even our vassals like Israel have universal healthcare while we're all in debt because of healthcare. It's not working and needs to stop.

Teever 2mo ago
It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed. One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression. There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat of one form or another be they monarchs or religious leaders. Most people had very few human rights and had little opportunity for self-determination. Through the hard work of revolutionaries around the world many of those autocrats were deposed and others seeing the writing on the wall offered power to the people more willingly. Think of it like a jailbreak where the jailer is oppressive and everyone in the jail is innocent. On your wait out should help open the cells of as many people as you can if only out of your own self interest because a larger mob escaping gives each individual a better chance to escape due to strength in numbers but also because it's just the right thing to do. It's sort of the same thing here, Our ancestors (or even some of us) got out from under the thumb of an autocrat jailer but there are still others in that jail. If we don't help them who will? What would you want someone else to do if you were in their situation? To walk by an unjustly imprisoned person's jail cell and not free them when it is trivial to do so makes you the jailer. Now that's the theory. In practice, I agree with much of what you're saying -- reality is a far trickier place than we'd like and the details make doing the right thing difficult if not impossible. And that doesn't cover the reality that western democracies are imperfect themselves and that many of their citizens are still subject to repression by their own autocratic leaning leaders, and so that we can't always do the right thing, but we should at least aspire to.
- badpun 2mo ago
  If you overthrow one autocrat and the society is not ready to self-govern, you'll just have another one taking his place. The best you can do is to fund some kind of democratic opposition on the ground and in exile, hoping to grow a political class mature enough that they will take over after autocrat loses power one way or another.
  - don_esteban 2mo ago
    Maybe the best you can do is just don't meddle in other's internal affairs. Just think how would you feel if other countries interfered 'with all good intentions, of course' in the internal affairs of your country.
    - badpun 2mo ago
      If I were living in brutal dictatorship that has majority support (that’s today Russia) I’d really want foreign powers to „meddle”. But an average Russian likes the current state and hence hates any foreign attempts at influence.
      - don_esteban 2mo ago
        The problem with meddling is the unintended long term consequences. Did the historical record teach us nothing? Are you sure that meddling in Russian internal affairs would result in better outcome? Even if it results in the collapse of Putin's regime? Can you predict who will replace him? What will happen to all Russian nukes? Do you live in USA? Do you think Trump is a threat to US democracy? How would you feel about foreign powers meddling in USA?
        badpun 2mo ago
        That's why I'd limit "meddling" to trying to inform and educate the local population. They don't have access to news (due to state censorship, the people are few propagandistic lies instead), at the very least foreign power can try and provide that, like they did with "Radio Free Europe" during the Cold War.
Galaxeblaffer 2mo ago
In this case, the US was pretty involved in destabilizing the country. If the us and the uk hadn't intervened in 50s, Iran would have made a successful transition from monarchy to democracy. I guess we can discuss if the US owes anything to anyone, but a case for the us correcting earlier mistakes can definitely be made.
- qntmfred 2mo ago
  there's much more to the story of Iran than the simple "oh of course the UK and US are bad"
  - Galaxeblaffer 2mo ago
    Og course there's so much more to the story.. but the fact is that the monarchy was effectively overthrown and shah had given up power and fled the country. In this particular instance it's very simple.. the us and the uk was bad
    - qntmfred 2mo ago
      just bc the shah fled the country doesn't mean the us and uk were bad or even the root cause. same kind of simple-minded ignorance that led to Mossadegh's rise in the first place.
    - frollogaston 2mo ago
      Pahlavi was basically disconnected from the West by the middle to end of his reign, not an ally at all. Pahlavi's Iran cofounded OPEC, nationalized their oil in 1973, and pressured OPEC to raise prices. Really makes me wonder.
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  I can't assume that Iran would've successfully transitioned to democracy, or that it's even what should happen there. All those Arabian Gulf countries are monarchies.
  - 2mo ago
senderista 2mo ago
> our vassals like Israel Are you sure it isn’t the other way around?
- js4ever 2mo ago
  are you saying jews control the world?
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    No, they're saying America is a vassal of Israel. Very different statement.
    - frollogaston 2mo ago
      Exactly. It's not US imperialism. I'm not against US imperialism.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        You probably should be?
        frollogaston 2mo ago
        Nope, I don't care about the belief system they tried to force on us in school. Venezuela made sense to intervene in, so did Cuba back then.
TiredOfLife 2mo ago
> Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? If Iran wasn't supporting terror organizations around the world and didn't help russia I would agree. Their country, they can kill as much of their own people as they please.

Teever 2mo ago

It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed. One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression. There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat of one form or another be they monarchs or religious leaders. Most people had very few human rights and had little opportunity for self-determination. Through the hard work of revolutionaries around the world many of those autocrats were deposed and others seeing the writing on the wall offered power to the people more willingly. Think of it like a jailbreak where the jailer is oppressive and everyone in the jail is innocent. On your wait out should help open the cells of as many people as you can if only out of your own self interest because a larger mob escaping gives each individual a better chance to escape due to strength in numbers but also because it's just the right thing to do. It's sort of the same thing here, Our ancestors (or even some of us) got out from under the thumb of an autocrat jailer but there are still others in that jail. If we don't help them who will? What would you want someone else to do if you were in their situation? To walk by an unjustly imprisoned person's jail cell and not free them when it is trivial to do so makes you the jailer. Now that's the theory. In practice, I agree with much of what you're saying -- reality is a far trickier place than we'd like and the details make doing the right thing difficult if not impossible. And that doesn't cover the reality that western democracies are imperfect themselves and that many of their citizens are still subject to repression by their own autocratic leaning leaders, and so that we can't always do the right thing, but we should at least aspire to.

badpun 2mo ago
If you overthrow one autocrat and the society is not ready to self-govern, you'll just have another one taking his place. The best you can do is to fund some kind of democratic opposition on the ground and in exile, hoping to grow a political class mature enough that they will take over after autocrat loses power one way or another.
- don_esteban 2mo ago
  Maybe the best you can do is just don't meddle in other's internal affairs. Just think how would you feel if other countries interfered 'with all good intentions, of course' in the internal affairs of your country.
  - badpun 2mo ago
    If I were living in brutal dictatorship that has majority support (that’s today Russia) I’d really want foreign powers to „meddle”. But an average Russian likes the current state and hence hates any foreign attempts at influence.
    - don_esteban 2mo ago
      The problem with meddling is the unintended long term consequences. Did the historical record teach us nothing? Are you sure that meddling in Russian internal affairs would result in better outcome? Even if it results in the collapse of Putin's regime? Can you predict who will replace him? What will happen to all Russian nukes? Do you live in USA? Do you think Trump is a threat to US democracy? How would you feel about foreign powers meddling in USA?
      - badpun 2mo ago
        That's why I'd limit "meddling" to trying to inform and educate the local population. They don't have access to news (due to state censorship, the people are few propagandistic lies instead), at the very least foreign power can try and provide that, like they did with "Radio Free Europe" during the Cold War.

Galaxeblaffer 2mo ago

In this case, the US was pretty involved in destabilizing the country. If the us and the uk hadn't intervened in 50s, Iran would have made a successful transition from monarchy to democracy. I guess we can discuss if the US owes anything to anyone, but a case for the us correcting earlier mistakes can definitely be made.

qntmfred 2mo ago
there's much more to the story of Iran than the simple "oh of course the UK and US are bad"
- Galaxeblaffer 2mo ago
  Og course there's so much more to the story.. but the fact is that the monarchy was effectively overthrown and shah had given up power and fled the country. In this particular instance it's very simple.. the us and the uk was bad
  - qntmfred 2mo ago
    just bc the shah fled the country doesn't mean the us and uk were bad or even the root cause. same kind of simple-minded ignorance that led to Mossadegh's rise in the first place.
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Pahlavi was basically disconnected from the West by the middle to end of his reign, not an ally at all. Pahlavi's Iran cofounded OPEC, nationalized their oil in 1973, and pressured OPEC to raise prices. Really makes me wonder.
frollogaston 2mo ago
I can't assume that Iran would've successfully transitioned to democracy, or that it's even what should happen there. All those Arabian Gulf countries are monarchies.
- 2mo ago

senderista 2mo ago

> our vassals like Israel Are you sure it isn’t the other way around?

js4ever 2mo ago
are you saying jews control the world?
- inigyou 2mo ago
  No, they're saying America is a vassal of Israel. Very different statement.
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Exactly. It's not US imperialism. I'm not against US imperialism.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      You probably should be?
      - frollogaston 2mo ago
        Nope, I don't care about the belief system they tried to force on us in school. Venezuela made sense to intervene in, so did Cuba back then.

TiredOfLife 2mo ago

> Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? If Iran wasn't supporting terror organizations around the world and didn't help russia I would agree. Their country, they can kill as much of their own people as they please.