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The alternative is what the last five American presidents have done: containment. There's a reason Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton and Bush didn't start the war th

The alternative is what the last five American presidents have done: containment. There's a reason Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton and Bush didn't start the war that Trump did. This is why.

frollogaston 2mo ago
Even Biden and Bush got too involved in the region. There's really not much for us to gain there, because it's not for us. Biden is still #1 on this list https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind...
- ajross 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Putting a lot of words in my mouth there
    - ajross 2mo ago
      [flagged]
      - thisislife2 2mo ago
        Not OP, but I don't understand how you claim that Bush and Biden have nothing to do with the mess in the middle-east? Didn't Bush start the Iraq war, which removed political stability and introduced social and political chaos there? Didn't subsequent US Presidents after 9/11, including Biden, prolong the National Emergency to fight "terrorists" (look it up - while The Democratic party fear mongers that Trump will proclaim a National Emergency, the National Emergency declared after 9/11 is still in force! Every US President since 9/11, whether Democrat or Republican has extended it so that they can abuse the extraordinary powers it gives the US President).
        ajross 2mo ago
        Exactly. General opposition to the war on terror and the US in general has blinded you to obvious analysis that things were basically OK seven months ago and they're shit now, and there's a reason for that that isn't anything to do with US hegemony or whatever. If you want to oppose imperialist scum, this makes sense. If you want the global economy to not be shit, it doesn't.
      - singleshot_ 2mo ago
        > Bush didn't cause the mess in the gulf, period, full stop. Uh, > Is there space for nuanced discussion? Apparently not?
        ajross 2mo ago
        As mentioned, if you want to talk nuance bring the nuance to your comment. Don't try to fake it with "Even Bush and Biden" to make yourself feel smart on HN. You aren't, that shit's dangerous because it excuses further malfesance. Bush and Biden left a functioning gulf, Trump didn't. That difference is important even if you want to talk nuance.
        frollogaston 2mo ago
        Why bother, if you've already (incorrectly) talked out in your head what I'm going to say? Not going to deal with this pretention.
        ajross 2mo ago
        Genuine apology if that's the sense you got. I'd love to hear the nuance. Please deliver it.
        frollogaston 2mo ago
        Well thanks. I agree Trump screwed up the situation the most. Bush invading Iraq with ground forces was a larger intervention and was not fine at all, but also less brazen because Saddam were more isolated. Allies were willing to help too. Iran War ruins our reputation like nothing else. When I said "even" Biden and Bush, it meant in the sense that they were less of a problem but did overreach. Why mention that... In the same vein, even the Democratic party is still largely pro-Israel, and more so disagrees with the Republican party on how to do it. And they're quieter about it, which tbh is smarter. Trump has accepted by far the most money for Israel, but from a different place than others, the Adelsons. Biden's is from AIPAC, and they likely bet on him because he's so supportive of Israel at the core, whereas Trump might be more transactional.
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
- Braxton1980 2mo ago
  Why does the amount of money mattter and not the actions taken? Trump has done more pro israel actions than Biden
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Trump indeed has. And that chart doesn't show Miram Adelson's $100M given to Trump's campaign plus whatever she and her husband gave before the first term, so even terms of money Trump is far ahead. From a woman who describes herself as an Israeli stuck in America. However, Biden is completely pro-Israel. He would do anything for them and has said so. Guessing he didn't think attacking Iran was the best thing for Israel. Well look at how it's going.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
TiredOfLife 2mo ago
Containment led to russia launching hundreds of iranian designed drones at Ukraine evey day.
- Der_Einzige 2mo ago
  Trump could EASILY increase US support to Ukraine. He could have even done what France was flirting with, which was deploying boots on the ground in defensive positions as a "red line". Bringing up Ukraine/Russia is not in good faith. You know this, you know that democrats have called for aggressively arming Ukraine and never wanted this dumb Iran war. Trump isn't "strong" until he actually calls Putin's bluff on nuclear weapons. You're not gonna do it Putin, and I'm fully willing for me and everyone I know to die in WW3/nuclear holocaust just to make sure Putin goes to hell a bit faster.
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Trump probably withdrew funding from Ukraine to fund Israel instead, simple as.

The alternative is what the last five American presidents have done: containment. There's a reason Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton and Bush didn't start the war that Trump did. This is why.

frollogaston 2mo ago

Even Biden and Bush got too involved in the region. There's really not much for us to gain there, because it's not for us. Biden is still #1 on this list https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind...

ajross 2mo ago
[flagged]
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  Putting a lot of words in my mouth there
  - ajross 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - thisislife2 2mo ago
      Not OP, but I don't understand how you claim that Bush and Biden have nothing to do with the mess in the middle-east? Didn't Bush start the Iraq war, which removed political stability and introduced social and political chaos there? Didn't subsequent US Presidents after 9/11, including Biden, prolong the National Emergency to fight "terrorists" (look it up - while The Democratic party fear mongers that Trump will proclaim a National Emergency, the National Emergency declared after 9/11 is still in force! Every US President since 9/11, whether Democrat or Republican has extended it so that they can abuse the extraordinary powers it gives the US President).
      - ajross 2mo ago
        Exactly. General opposition to the war on terror and the US in general has blinded you to obvious analysis that things were basically OK seven months ago and they're shit now, and there's a reason for that that isn't anything to do with US hegemony or whatever. If you want to oppose imperialist scum, this makes sense. If you want the global economy to not be shit, it doesn't.
    - singleshot_ 2mo ago
      > Bush didn't cause the mess in the gulf, period, full stop. Uh, > Is there space for nuanced discussion? Apparently not?
      - ajross 2mo ago
        As mentioned, if you want to talk nuance bring the nuance to your comment. Don't try to fake it with "Even Bush and Biden" to make yourself feel smart on HN. You aren't, that shit's dangerous because it excuses further malfesance. Bush and Biden left a functioning gulf, Trump didn't. That difference is important even if you want to talk nuance.
        frollogaston 2mo ago
        Why bother, if you've already (incorrectly) talked out in your head what I'm going to say? Not going to deal with this pretention.
        ajross 2mo ago
        Genuine apology if that's the sense you got. I'd love to hear the nuance. Please deliver it.
        frollogaston 2mo ago
        Well thanks. I agree Trump screwed up the situation the most. Bush invading Iraq with ground forces was a larger intervention and was not fine at all, but also less brazen because Saddam were more isolated. Allies were willing to help too. Iran War ruins our reputation like nothing else. When I said "even" Biden and Bush, it meant in the sense that they were less of a problem but did overreach. Why mention that... In the same vein, even the Democratic party is still largely pro-Israel, and more so disagrees with the Republican party on how to do it. And they're quieter about it, which tbh is smarter. Trump has accepted by far the most money for Israel, but from a different place than others, the Adelsons. Biden's is from AIPAC, and they likely bet on him because he's so supportive of Israel at the core, whereas Trump might be more transactional.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
Braxton1980 2mo ago
Why does the amount of money mattter and not the actions taken? Trump has done more pro israel actions than Biden
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  Trump indeed has. And that chart doesn't show Miram Adelson's $100M given to Trump's campaign plus whatever she and her husband gave before the first term, so even terms of money Trump is far ahead. From a woman who describes herself as an Israeli stuck in America. However, Biden is completely pro-Israel. He would do anything for them and has said so. Guessing he didn't think attacking Iran was the best thing for Israel. Well look at how it's going.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

TiredOfLife 2mo ago

Containment led to russia launching hundreds of iranian designed drones at Ukraine evey day.

Der_Einzige 2mo ago
Trump could EASILY increase US support to Ukraine. He could have even done what France was flirting with, which was deploying boots on the ground in defensive positions as a "red line". Bringing up Ukraine/Russia is not in good faith. You know this, you know that democrats have called for aggressively arming Ukraine and never wanted this dumb Iran war. Trump isn't "strong" until he actually calls Putin's bluff on nuclear weapons. You're not gonna do it Putin, and I'm fully willing for me and everyone I know to die in WW3/nuclear holocaust just to make sure Putin goes to hell a bit faster.
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  Trump probably withdrew funding from Ukraine to fund Israel instead, simple as.