6 ms·

What are alternatives. You can't change from inside and you can't change from the outside.

frollogaston 3mo ago
Either treat it as not our problem, or if we're going to get involved, have a strategy to change the government. Yes it has been done in Iran at least once from the outside, maybe twice.
joshmarinacci 3mo ago
The alternative is what the last five American presidents have done: containment. There's a reason Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton and Bush didn't start the war that Trump did. This is why.
- frollogaston 3mo ago
  Even Biden and Bush got too involved in the region. There's really not much for us to gain there, because it's not for us. Biden is still #1 on this list https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind...
  - ajross 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - frollogaston 3mo ago
      Putting a lot of words in my mouth there
      - ajross 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        thisislife2 3mo ago
        Not OP, but I don't understand how you claim that Bush and Biden have nothing to do with the mess in the middle-east? Didn't Bush start the Iraq war, which removed political stability and introduced social and political chaos there? Didn't subsequent US Presidents after 9/11, including Biden, prolong the National Emergency to fight "terrorists" (look it up - while The Democratic party fear mongers that Trump will proclaim a National Emergency, the National Emergency declared after 9/11 is still in force! Every US President since 9/11, whether Democrat or Republican has extended it so that they can abuse the extraordinary powers it gives the US President).
        ajross 3mo ago
        Exactly. General opposition to the war on terror and the US in general has blinded you to obvious analysis that things were basically OK seven months ago and they're shit now, and there's a reason for that that isn't anything to do with US hegemony or whatever. If you want to oppose imperialist scum, this makes sense. If you want the global economy to not be shit, it doesn't.
        singleshot_ 3mo ago
        > Bush didn't cause the mess in the gulf, period, full stop. Uh, > Is there space for nuanced discussion? Apparently not?
        ajross 3mo ago
        As mentioned, if you want to talk nuance bring the nuance to your comment. Don't try to fake it with "Even Bush and Biden" to make yourself feel smart on HN. You aren't, that shit's dangerous because it excuses further malfesance. Bush and Biden left a functioning gulf, Trump didn't. That difference is important even if you want to talk nuance.
        frollogaston 3mo ago
        Why bother, if you've already (incorrectly) talked out in your head what I'm going to say? Not going to deal with this pretention.
  - Braxton1980 3mo ago
    Why does the amount of money mattter and not the actions taken? Trump has done more pro israel actions than Biden
    - frollogaston 3mo ago
      Trump indeed has. And that chart doesn't show Miram Adelson's $100M given to Trump's campaign plus whatever she and her husband gave before the first term, so even terms of money Trump is far ahead. From a woman who describes herself as an Israeli stuck in America. However, Biden is completely pro-Israel. He would do anything for them and has said so. Guessing he didn't think attacking Iran was the best thing for Israel. Well look at how it's going.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- TiredOfLife 3mo ago
  Containment led to russia launching hundreds of iranian designed drones at Ukraine evey day.
  - Der_Einzige 3mo ago
    Trump could EASILY increase US support to Ukraine. He could have even done what France was flirting with, which was deploying boots on the ground in defensive positions as a "red line". Bringing up Ukraine/Russia is not in good faith. You know this, you know that democrats have called for aggressively arming Ukraine and never wanted this dumb Iran war. Trump isn't "strong" until he actually calls Putin's bluff on nuclear weapons. You're not gonna do it Putin, and I'm fully willing for me and everyone I know to die in WW3/nuclear holocaust just to make sure Putin goes to hell a bit faster.
    - frollogaston 3mo ago
      Trump probably withdrew funding from Ukraine to fund Israel instead, simple as.
petilon 3mo ago
Ground troops have to invade Iran. Trump can't do that now because of upcoming midterm elections. After the elections, if there is no other way then Trump has to send ground troops in.
- logicchains 3mo ago
  The alternative is it just destroy all their oil infrastructure and wait for the regime to collapse from lack of funds. But Trump doesn't want to do that (or let Israel do it) because he dreams of taking all that oil for himself and his buddies like in Venezuela.
  - danbruc 3mo ago
    If you do that, the oil, gas, and desalination infrastructure of the Gulf states will go down together with Iran. And besides that, why do you want to fight Iran to begin with?
  - jimbob45 3mo ago
    This gets downvoted and ignored in every thread I see, not just on this website. But how is this not obviously the answer? We know Russia and China are funneling money to Iran so it would be a double win to drain their coffers too. Morality aside, I just don’t see how this has been ignored. I know there is a large push for peace by many of the leaders of Iran and it turns out decentralized power can be a double-edged sword. Still, they can’t hold out forever.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      Because destroying the world's oil infrastructure guarantees the collapse of the USA?
    - frollogaston 3mo ago
      Morality aside, I don't see how we'd benefit from this. I do see how Israel would benefit, that's why they keep pushing us to do it.
- 3mo ago
mptest 3mo ago
> alternatives... Well, maybe start fixing problems at home before spending tens of billions not fixing things anywhere else? we can't even change ourselves for the better, an adjudicated rapist, alleged pedophile rules us, and we're going to reform other countries? what grounds do we have to be casting stones ? "they're killing protestors!" I hear many westerns say, while ignoring the americans we're jailing for 30 years, calling terrorists for protesting the extrajudicial killings ICE are doing. we have millions without healthcare, above subsistence employment, food security. Why are americans worried about "changing" iran?? Let's look in the mirror, folks.
runtime_terror 3mo ago
Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? And if we wanted to help another country, working with the international community should be the only approach we take. We've spent many decades overthrowing countries to what end? Even our vassals like Israel have universal healthcare while we're all in debt because of healthcare. It's not working and needs to stop.
- Teever 3mo ago
  It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed. One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression. There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat of one form or another be they monarchs or religious leaders. Most people had very few human rights and had little opportunity for self-determination. Through the hard work of revolutionaries around the world many of those autocrats were deposed and others seeing the writing on the wall offered power to the people more willingly. Think of it like a jailbreak where the jailer is oppressive and everyone in the jail is innocent. On your wait out should help open the cells of as many people as you can if only out of your own self interest because a larger mob escaping gives each individual a better chance to escape due to strength in numbers but also because it's just the right thing to do. It's sort of the same thing here, Our ancestors (or even some of us) got out from under the thumb of an autocrat jailer but there are still others in that jail. If we don't help them who will? What would you want someone else to do if you were in their situation? To walk by an unjustly imprisoned person's jail cell and not free them when it is trivial to do so makes you the jailer. Now that's the theory. In practice, I agree with much of what you're saying -- reality is a far trickier place than we'd like and the details make doing the right thing difficult if not impossible. And that doesn't cover the reality that western democracies are imperfect themselves and that many of their citizens are still subject to repression by their own autocratic leaning leaders, and so that we can't always do the right thing, but we should at least aspire to.
  - badpun 3mo ago
Henchman21 3mo ago
Do nothing and let them live in peace.

Either treat it as not our problem, or if we're going to get involved, have a strategy to change the government. Yes it has been done in Iran at least once from the outside, maybe twice.

joshmarinacci 3mo ago

The alternative is what the last five American presidents have done: containment. There's a reason Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton and Bush didn't start the war that Trump did. This is why.

frollogaston 3mo ago
Even Biden and Bush got too involved in the region. There's really not much for us to gain there, because it's not for us. Biden is still #1 on this list https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind...
- ajross 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - frollogaston 3mo ago
    Putting a lot of words in my mouth there
    - ajross 3mo ago
      [flagged]
      - thisislife2 3mo ago
        Not OP, but I don't understand how you claim that Bush and Biden have nothing to do with the mess in the middle-east? Didn't Bush start the Iraq war, which removed political stability and introduced social and political chaos there? Didn't subsequent US Presidents after 9/11, including Biden, prolong the National Emergency to fight "terrorists" (look it up - while The Democratic party fear mongers that Trump will proclaim a National Emergency, the National Emergency declared after 9/11 is still in force! Every US President since 9/11, whether Democrat or Republican has extended it so that they can abuse the extraordinary powers it gives the US President).
        ajross 3mo ago
        Exactly. General opposition to the war on terror and the US in general has blinded you to obvious analysis that things were basically OK seven months ago and they're shit now, and there's a reason for that that isn't anything to do with US hegemony or whatever. If you want to oppose imperialist scum, this makes sense. If you want the global economy to not be shit, it doesn't.
      - singleshot_ 3mo ago
        > Bush didn't cause the mess in the gulf, period, full stop. Uh, > Is there space for nuanced discussion? Apparently not?
        ajross 3mo ago
        As mentioned, if you want to talk nuance bring the nuance to your comment. Don't try to fake it with "Even Bush and Biden" to make yourself feel smart on HN. You aren't, that shit's dangerous because it excuses further malfesance. Bush and Biden left a functioning gulf, Trump didn't. That difference is important even if you want to talk nuance.
        frollogaston 3mo ago
        Why bother, if you've already (incorrectly) talked out in your head what I'm going to say? Not going to deal with this pretention.
- Braxton1980 3mo ago
  Why does the amount of money mattter and not the actions taken? Trump has done more pro israel actions than Biden
  - frollogaston 3mo ago
    Trump indeed has. And that chart doesn't show Miram Adelson's $100M given to Trump's campaign plus whatever she and her husband gave before the first term, so even terms of money Trump is far ahead. From a woman who describes herself as an Israeli stuck in America. However, Biden is completely pro-Israel. He would do anything for them and has said so. Guessing he didn't think attacking Iran was the best thing for Israel. Well look at how it's going.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
TiredOfLife 3mo ago
Containment led to russia launching hundreds of iranian designed drones at Ukraine evey day.
- Der_Einzige 3mo ago
  Trump could EASILY increase US support to Ukraine. He could have even done what France was flirting with, which was deploying boots on the ground in defensive positions as a "red line". Bringing up Ukraine/Russia is not in good faith. You know this, you know that democrats have called for aggressively arming Ukraine and never wanted this dumb Iran war. Trump isn't "strong" until he actually calls Putin's bluff on nuclear weapons. You're not gonna do it Putin, and I'm fully willing for me and everyone I know to die in WW3/nuclear holocaust just to make sure Putin goes to hell a bit faster.
  - frollogaston 3mo ago
    Trump probably withdrew funding from Ukraine to fund Israel instead, simple as.

petilon 3mo ago

Ground troops have to invade Iran. Trump can't do that now because of upcoming midterm elections. After the elections, if there is no other way then Trump has to send ground troops in.

logicchains 3mo ago
The alternative is it just destroy all their oil infrastructure and wait for the regime to collapse from lack of funds. But Trump doesn't want to do that (or let Israel do it) because he dreams of taking all that oil for himself and his buddies like in Venezuela.
- danbruc 3mo ago
  If you do that, the oil, gas, and desalination infrastructure of the Gulf states will go down together with Iran. And besides that, why do you want to fight Iran to begin with?
- jimbob45 3mo ago
  This gets downvoted and ignored in every thread I see, not just on this website. But how is this not obviously the answer? We know Russia and China are funneling money to Iran so it would be a double win to drain their coffers too. Morality aside, I just don’t see how this has been ignored. I know there is a large push for peace by many of the leaders of Iran and it turns out decentralized power can be a double-edged sword. Still, they can’t hold out forever.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    Because destroying the world's oil infrastructure guarantees the collapse of the USA?
  - frollogaston 3mo ago
    Morality aside, I don't see how we'd benefit from this. I do see how Israel would benefit, that's why they keep pushing us to do it.
3mo ago

mptest 3mo ago

> alternatives... Well, maybe start fixing problems at home before spending tens of billions not fixing things anywhere else? we can't even change ourselves for the better, an adjudicated rapist, alleged pedophile rules us, and we're going to reform other countries? what grounds do we have to be casting stones ? "they're killing protestors!" I hear many westerns say, while ignoring the americans we're jailing for 30 years, calling terrorists for protesting the extrajudicial killings ICE are doing. we have millions without healthcare, above subsistence employment, food security. Why are americans worried about "changing" iran?? Let's look in the mirror, folks.

runtime_terror 3mo ago

Why do we think it's our job to intervene in other countries like this? And if we wanted to help another country, working with the international community should be the only approach we take. We've spent many decades overthrowing countries to what end? Even our vassals like Israel have universal healthcare while we're all in debt because of healthcare. It's not working and needs to stop.

Teever 3mo ago
It comes down to the simple reality that "I am because we are" and as such any time a human being is oppressed we are all oppressed. One could make the argument the people who live in liberal democracies have an obligation to help those who unfortunately do not and who are still forced to live under autocratic oppression. There were periods in history where most people lived under the thumb of some sort of autocrat of one form or another be they monarchs or religious leaders. Most people had very few human rights and had little opportunity for self-determination. Through the hard work of revolutionaries around the world many of those autocrats were deposed and others seeing the writing on the wall offered power to the people more willingly. Think of it like a jailbreak where the jailer is oppressive and everyone in the jail is innocent. On your wait out should help open the cells of as many people as you can if only out of your own self interest because a larger mob escaping gives each individual a better chance to escape due to strength in numbers but also because it's just the right thing to do. It's sort of the same thing here, Our ancestors (or even some of us) got out from under the thumb of an autocrat jailer but there are still others in that jail. If we don't help them who will? What would you want someone else to do if you were in their situation? To walk by an unjustly imprisoned person's jail cell and not free them when it is trivial to do so makes you the jailer. Now that's the theory. In practice, I agree with much of what you're saying -- reality is a far trickier place than we'd like and the details make doing the right thing difficult if not impossible. And that doesn't cover the reality that western democracies are imperfect themselves and that many of their citizens are still subject to repression by their own autocratic leaning leaders, and so that we can't always do the right thing, but we should at least aspire to.
- badpun 3mo ago

Henchman21 3mo ago

Do nothing and let them live in peace.