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It’s a good book but I didn’t agree that the big problem would be men lacking meaning because they didn’t have to work. They had families, homes and food. They

It’s a good book but I didn’t agree that the big problem would be men lacking meaning because they didn’t have to work. They had families, homes and food. They could have devoted themselves to personal improvement, art, sports, their kids, whatever. I’d love to have security and no job. I’d be full to the brim with meaning and satisfaction.

smallmancontrov 3mo ago
Yes, and while I'm sure the adjustment wouldn't be seamless (nothing worth doing ever is), anyone trying to hawk the "you need me, your master, to give you purpose!" line should be met with the highest order of immediate suspicion. The kid protagonists on the Cartoon Network wouldn't fall for that shit, I'm shocked by the number of grown adults who take the bait hook, line, and sinker without suspicion.
georgemcbay 3mo ago
> I’d love to have security and no job. I’d be full to the brim with meaning and satisfaction. Same. I have plenty of hobbies and could increase the amount of volunteer work I do substantially if I didn't have to work to stay fed and housed. But I've also worked with plenty of people for whom their job and their overall identity are inexorably intertwined. So while I don't see that issue as being a problem for me, it is likely to be a problem for a great number of people.
- customguy 3mo ago
  > But I've also worked with plenty of people for whom their job and their overall identity are inexorably intertwined. Is that an argument for or against jobs? Because one way to look at it is that they didn't develop a personality and identity at all, because they just attached themselves to a job. When that inevitably ends anyway, sooner or later, one way or another, a deep pit of nothing. That's one reason to rip the bandaid off right away. But IMO even more importantly, how much room do people who do what the environment tells them, who let their job tell them who they are, have for inner dialogue? The worst things in the world were and are enabled by people "just doing their job", and if they have no identity outside of their job, there's someone just following orders waiting to happen. So from what would distress them, being rid of a crutch and an ear piece where a person would otherwise grow, follows that it is in their and all of our best interest to pay no mind to it. Their new job will be to get a life and become a person. Maybe someone can print out some papers that make it look official, and they can get a monthly letter telling them they earned N personality dollars this month, good job, keep it up, thanks, company.
  - wbl 3mo ago
    Jobs are things people are willing to pay money to have done and thus are important to society. It's not surprising people find purpose in them.
    - customguy 3mo ago
      I know what a job is, the problem is rather that you don't seem to know that "finding purpose in something" and "making it your identity" are completely different things.
kouru225 3mo ago
I agree, but the reaction to AI is making me realize that there are a whole bunch of people who don’t know how to find meaning in their lives
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
  They did find it though, and then AI took it away from them.
  - CamperBob2 3mo ago
    They thought they found it, but they didn't. Now the cognitive dissonance is kicking in, and their idea of therapy is to kick the nearest robot.
    - Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
      Bold of you to claim to know better what other people's sources of meaning are.
      - CamperBob2 3mo ago
        Wasn't it, though? Wonder where I picked up that habit.
        Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
        AI?
tclancy 3mo ago
Try to remember the time it was written in though. Now, male mental health is actually talked about and therapy is not seen as something shameful. I mean, unless you’re trying to sell bootcamps to incels.
foxglacier 3mo ago
Are you sure you would thrive without a job long term? I know it's very easy to feel that way when you're working because your pay is proof that you're doing something valuable, the requirement to do your job even when you don't feel like it ensures you don't fall into a spiral of laziness, and you don't have to face the inevitably worse reality of actually doing those things you want instead of just imagining them. What direction would you even go in and what force would continue to drive you even after your kids have grown up and there's nothing of value you can do for another human? Personal improvement in what direction? Be better at coping without external validation? There are sayings like "If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it" and "success breeds success". I have plenty of life experience that appears to confirm these in myself and others I know.
- ctoth 3mo ago
  > what force would continue to drive you even after your kids have grown up and there's nothing of value you can do for another human? Building things I'm interested in with and for people I care about. That might look like code or gardening or relationships or all sorts of things. There's so much to do. So many things to want to get out of bed for, and for the days when there aren't, slow cozy mornings are nice too. Why do you suppose there will be nothing of value you can do for another human just because the machines are better/faster at most things? Just caring about someone without being programmed to will seem to become quite the most valuable thing?
  - foxglacier 3mo ago
    Yes, caring for people might be the one thing that remains. I can't imagine gardening or programming would be very satisfying in post-scarcity-land where you're inevitably doing something entirely useless compared to what machines would do.
    - ctoth 3mo ago
      But ... I'm already not a very great gardener? Certainly not compared to an industrial megafarm? No where near as efficient? And it is still fun! We already live in the world where machines (or at least cyborgs, man + machine) garden better than humans, and yet there are human gardeners out here pulling weeds by hand, digging in the dirt for fun, happy to share our often funky-looking vegetables with friends.

smallmancontrov 3mo ago

Yes, and while I'm sure the adjustment wouldn't be seamless (nothing worth doing ever is), anyone trying to hawk the "you need me, your master, to give you purpose!" line should be met with the highest order of immediate suspicion. The kid protagonists on the Cartoon Network wouldn't fall for that shit, I'm shocked by the number of grown adults who take the bait hook, line, and sinker without suspicion.

georgemcbay 3mo ago

> I’d love to have security and no job. I’d be full to the brim with meaning and satisfaction. Same. I have plenty of hobbies and could increase the amount of volunteer work I do substantially if I didn't have to work to stay fed and housed. But I've also worked with plenty of people for whom their job and their overall identity are inexorably intertwined. So while I don't see that issue as being a problem for me, it is likely to be a problem for a great number of people.

customguy 3mo ago
> But I've also worked with plenty of people for whom their job and their overall identity are inexorably intertwined. Is that an argument for or against jobs? Because one way to look at it is that they didn't develop a personality and identity at all, because they just attached themselves to a job. When that inevitably ends anyway, sooner or later, one way or another, a deep pit of nothing. That's one reason to rip the bandaid off right away. But IMO even more importantly, how much room do people who do what the environment tells them, who let their job tell them who they are, have for inner dialogue? The worst things in the world were and are enabled by people "just doing their job", and if they have no identity outside of their job, there's someone just following orders waiting to happen. So from what would distress them, being rid of a crutch and an ear piece where a person would otherwise grow, follows that it is in their and all of our best interest to pay no mind to it. Their new job will be to get a life and become a person. Maybe someone can print out some papers that make it look official, and they can get a monthly letter telling them they earned N personality dollars this month, good job, keep it up, thanks, company.
- wbl 3mo ago
  Jobs are things people are willing to pay money to have done and thus are important to society. It's not surprising people find purpose in them.
  - customguy 3mo ago
    I know what a job is, the problem is rather that you don't seem to know that "finding purpose in something" and "making it your identity" are completely different things.

kouru225 3mo ago

I agree, but the reaction to AI is making me realize that there are a whole bunch of people who don’t know how to find meaning in their lives

Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
They did find it though, and then AI took it away from them.
- CamperBob2 3mo ago
  They thought they found it, but they didn't. Now the cognitive dissonance is kicking in, and their idea of therapy is to kick the nearest robot.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
    Bold of you to claim to know better what other people's sources of meaning are.
    - CamperBob2 3mo ago
      Wasn't it, though? Wonder where I picked up that habit.
      - Eddy_Viscosity2 3mo ago
        AI?

tclancy 3mo ago

Try to remember the time it was written in though. Now, male mental health is actually talked about and therapy is not seen as something shameful. I mean, unless you’re trying to sell bootcamps to incels.

foxglacier 3mo ago

Are you sure you would thrive without a job long term? I know it's very easy to feel that way when you're working because your pay is proof that you're doing something valuable, the requirement to do your job even when you don't feel like it ensures you don't fall into a spiral of laziness, and you don't have to face the inevitably worse reality of actually doing those things you want instead of just imagining them. What direction would you even go in and what force would continue to drive you even after your kids have grown up and there's nothing of value you can do for another human? Personal improvement in what direction? Be better at coping without external validation? There are sayings like "If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it" and "success breeds success". I have plenty of life experience that appears to confirm these in myself and others I know.

ctoth 3mo ago
> what force would continue to drive you even after your kids have grown up and there's nothing of value you can do for another human? Building things I'm interested in with and for people I care about. That might look like code or gardening or relationships or all sorts of things. There's so much to do. So many things to want to get out of bed for, and for the days when there aren't, slow cozy mornings are nice too. Why do you suppose there will be nothing of value you can do for another human just because the machines are better/faster at most things? Just caring about someone without being programmed to will seem to become quite the most valuable thing?
- foxglacier 3mo ago
  Yes, caring for people might be the one thing that remains. I can't imagine gardening or programming would be very satisfying in post-scarcity-land where you're inevitably doing something entirely useless compared to what machines would do.
  - ctoth 3mo ago
    But ... I'm already not a very great gardener? Certainly not compared to an industrial megafarm? No where near as efficient? And it is still fun! We already live in the world where machines (or at least cyborgs, man + machine) garden better than humans, and yet there are human gardeners out here pulling weeds by hand, digging in the dirt for fun, happy to share our often funky-looking vegetables with friends.