4 ms·

> That seems like a clear example of destruction of evidence If he was under arrest, sure. The cops claiming this was a routine airport inspection would seem t

> That seems like a clear example of destruction of evidence If he was under arrest, sure. The cops claiming this was a routine airport inspection would seem to muddy the waters, at least.

bootlooped 3mo ago
I don't think the crime of destroying evidence / tampering with evidence depends on what your status in custody is. If the police knock on your front door and you start shredding documents, that's still a crime. Now, could that get tossed about because they denied him access to a lawyer? Maybe, I don't know about that part.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > If the police knock on your front door and you start shredding documents, that's still a crime Isn’t the relevant bit whether you think you’re doing crimes and/or being investigated? If I’m shredding while the cops knock on my door because they’re looking for a missing cat, that’s obviously not criminal. (I guess the more-pertinent comparison would be they knock on my door and then I put stuff in the shredder while I check around my home.)
  - ImJamal 3mo ago
    If you shred any evidence of a crime you are guilty of a crime regardless if the police ever knock at your door or you think you are being investigated if you have the intent "to prevent the apprehension or cause the wrongful apprehension of any person or to obstruct the prosecution or defense of any person, he knowingly destroys, alters, conceals, or disguises physical evidence or makes, devises, prepares, or plants false evidence"
    - mukbangpervert 3mo ago
      You're jumping to conclusions. Deletion to protect privacy does not prove deletion to prevent apprehension. I could believe that everything is wholly innocent, but wish to protect privacy regardless.
      - ImJamal 3mo ago
        If that was his intent he shouldn't have handed over any pin. This looks like he was hiding evidence of wrongdoing and he will probably be charged with it. I am guessing his only hope will be that they denied his request for a lawyer.
        cogman10 3mo ago
        His rights were already being violated. He was falsely arrested and denied his rights to an attorney. They can prosecute him (and probably will) but he's got a pretty strong civil rights claim against the federal government for a false arrest and illegal search and seizure. You can't arrest someone without a warrant or a reasonable suspicion of a crime. These thugs had neither when they arrested him, just that he's "a terrorist". That's why they were trying to get him to confess or commit a crime. That's why they didn't want a lawyer to get involved.
- deejaaymac 3mo ago
  What if I have a camera/microphone near my front door, that when law enforcement is detected, it auto wipes my data, with no interaction from me?
  - bootlooped 3mo ago
    I don't think it ceases to be a crime if you automate it. What if instead of wiping data it set off a shotgun that was pointed at the door?
ImJamal 3mo ago
Under Georgia law (16-10-94) you do not have to be under arrest. > A person commits the offense of tampering with evidence when, with the intent to prevent the apprehension or cause the wrongful apprehension of any person or to obstruct the prosecution or defense of any person, he knowingly destroys, alters, conceals, or disguises physical evidence or makes, devises, prepares, or plants false evidence
- woodruffw 3mo ago
  This would be under federal law, not Georgia law I believe. But even assuming it was under Georgia law: it hasn’t been entered into public evidence that the person in question knowingly destroyed anything. It’s entirely possible the phone had nothing of value on it; the prosecution is required to demonstrate that evidence was in fact destroyed or falsified.
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    > the prosecution is required to demonstrate that evidence was in fact destroyed or falsified Is this legally true? At least in civil matters, destroying evidence typically causes the worst to be assumed about whatever was destroyed.
    - woodruffw 3mo ago
      I thought the standard for obtaining adverse/negative inference in a criminal case was higher than in a civil one, i.e. a judge will typically need more than just evidence that information was destroyed. But IANAL!
      - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
        Maybe you just get charged with destroying or tampering with evidence instead of the original charge? (Help us rayiner!)
  - ImJamal 3mo ago
    He was in Atlanta so he can be charged with a Georgia law even if it was the feds are involved. The federal law is quite similar though so it doesn't really matter. > Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. I'm not a lawyer, but I think the federal law might be more damning since the law clearly doesn't state that there has to actually be anything of value on the device as long as there was "intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation". Wiping a phone that they want to look at will impede the investigation.

> That seems like a clear example of destruction of evidence If he was under arrest, sure. The cops claiming this was a routine airport inspection would seem to muddy the waters, at least.

bootlooped 3mo ago

I don't think the crime of destroying evidence / tampering with evidence depends on what your status in custody is. If the police knock on your front door and you start shredding documents, that's still a crime. Now, could that get tossed about because they denied him access to a lawyer? Maybe, I don't know about that part.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> If the police knock on your front door and you start shredding documents, that's still a crime Isn’t the relevant bit whether you think you’re doing crimes and/or being investigated? If I’m shredding while the cops knock on my door because they’re looking for a missing cat, that’s obviously not criminal. (I guess the more-pertinent comparison would be they knock on my door and then I put stuff in the shredder while I check around my home.)
- ImJamal 3mo ago
  If you shred any evidence of a crime you are guilty of a crime regardless if the police ever knock at your door or you think you are being investigated if you have the intent "to prevent the apprehension or cause the wrongful apprehension of any person or to obstruct the prosecution or defense of any person, he knowingly destroys, alters, conceals, or disguises physical evidence or makes, devises, prepares, or plants false evidence"
  - mukbangpervert 3mo ago
    You're jumping to conclusions. Deletion to protect privacy does not prove deletion to prevent apprehension. I could believe that everything is wholly innocent, but wish to protect privacy regardless.
    - ImJamal 3mo ago
      If that was his intent he shouldn't have handed over any pin. This looks like he was hiding evidence of wrongdoing and he will probably be charged with it. I am guessing his only hope will be that they denied his request for a lawyer.
      - cogman10 3mo ago
        His rights were already being violated. He was falsely arrested and denied his rights to an attorney. They can prosecute him (and probably will) but he's got a pretty strong civil rights claim against the federal government for a false arrest and illegal search and seizure. You can't arrest someone without a warrant or a reasonable suspicion of a crime. These thugs had neither when they arrested him, just that he's "a terrorist". That's why they were trying to get him to confess or commit a crime. That's why they didn't want a lawyer to get involved.
deejaaymac 3mo ago
What if I have a camera/microphone near my front door, that when law enforcement is detected, it auto wipes my data, with no interaction from me?
- bootlooped 3mo ago
  I don't think it ceases to be a crime if you automate it. What if instead of wiping data it set off a shotgun that was pointed at the door?

ImJamal 3mo ago

Under Georgia law (16-10-94) you do not have to be under arrest. > A person commits the offense of tampering with evidence when, with the intent to prevent the apprehension or cause the wrongful apprehension of any person or to obstruct the prosecution or defense of any person, he knowingly destroys, alters, conceals, or disguises physical evidence or makes, devises, prepares, or plants false evidence

woodruffw 3mo ago
This would be under federal law, not Georgia law I believe. But even assuming it was under Georgia law: it hasn’t been entered into public evidence that the person in question knowingly destroyed anything. It’s entirely possible the phone had nothing of value on it; the prosecution is required to demonstrate that evidence was in fact destroyed or falsified.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > the prosecution is required to demonstrate that evidence was in fact destroyed or falsified Is this legally true? At least in civil matters, destroying evidence typically causes the worst to be assumed about whatever was destroyed.
  - woodruffw 3mo ago
    I thought the standard for obtaining adverse/negative inference in a criminal case was higher than in a civil one, i.e. a judge will typically need more than just evidence that information was destroyed. But IANAL!
    - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
      Maybe you just get charged with destroying or tampering with evidence instead of the original charge? (Help us rayiner!)
- ImJamal 3mo ago
  He was in Atlanta so he can be charged with a Georgia law even if it was the feds are involved. The federal law is quite similar though so it doesn't really matter. > Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. I'm not a lawyer, but I think the federal law might be more damning since the law clearly doesn't state that there has to actually be anything of value on the device as long as there was "intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation". Wiping a phone that they want to look at will impede the investigation.