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Absolutely terrifying. I'm sure they will soon find that AI pilots defeat human ones in dogfights 100% of the time, since they have faster reaction times, can

by chis 3mo ago

Absolutely terrifying. I'm sure they will soon find that AI pilots defeat human ones in dogfights 100% of the time, since they have faster reaction times, can tolerate higher G forces, and can be perfectly RL trained in the flight sims we already have. It's really incredible to me that people aren't protesting in the streets over this stuff. Just in the last month we have * AI that goes rogue and hacks billion-dollar companies * AI solving long-standing math problems without any meaningful human help * AI controlled autonomous drones in Ukraine and F-16s in America * AI now represents over 50% of GDP growth in America and yearly capex will soon exceed the size of the $1 trillion US military budget Is there any line where the public will become deeply concerned? I mean it really all reads like a sci-fi plot with a bad ending at the moment.

impulser_ 3mo ago
These systems still require a human to command the jet, they jsut don't have to be inside them. "This critical testing will pave the way for human pilots to seamlessly command and orchestrate teams of autonomous, uncrewed aircraft." The reason they are doing this is because the Military is already building a bunch of autonomous drones and fighter jets that already run on this system so they are retrofitting existing equipment with the same system so they can all fly together. "Ultimately, the capabilities advanced under AIR will enable a wide variety of future joint force operations, including Collaborative Combat Aircraft programs." Which are these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned-unmanned_teaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned-unmanned_teaming And everyone is developing these.
philipwhiuk 3mo ago
> I'm sure they will soon find that AI pilots defeat human ones in dogfights 100% of the time, Unfortunately you're wrong. It's not soon. It's 6 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_AlphaDogfight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_AlphaDogfight
IsTom 3mo ago
Are dogfights still relevant? Isn't it mostly shooting missiles outside of visual range these days?
- red-iron-pine 3mo ago
  yeah well beyond the line of sight you're either stealth, or you're a target. they're shooting 6+ R-37s a day in Ukraine, for example
- bluGill 3mo ago
  Dog fights are relevant for training. Also useful for slow drone work. However fighter on fighter is where missles are used
  - XorNot 3mo ago
    That's the current meta though is the thing and it could change. There's a plausible world where drone-aircraft are reliable enough at missile evasion that a decent strategy is to get in close and use the cannons because your entire airframe is much more attritable. There's even a plausible reason to do this: opening a weapons bay to shoot a missile generally reduces stealth, and not hauling a bunch of extra rocket motors and mass around could make you lighter, faster and with better engines to do it.
    - exDM69 3mo ago
      From what I have read (from unreliable sources), Ukrainian fighter pilots tried this a few years back and stopped due to too many losses. To engage a slow flying drone with cannons from a fighter jet, they have to get really close while flying close to stall speed. They had some success in shooting down drones but the explosion and the debris caused several lost fighters. Maybe something like a Embraer Super Tucano turboprop fighter with a gunpod could work. But that has very little other use in the battlefield.
      - XorNot 3mo ago
        I mean the other way round: rather then combat drones launching missiles, combat drones which use stealth and speed to close to dogfighting distances with aircraft and engage with their own cannons. It may be that risking some drone airframes for a higher overall kill rate becomes worth it when you're at no risk of losing the pilot, and could be more affordable then the missiles you'd otherwise have to expend (e.g. when you get to things like the Meteor which are very expensive and also use up jet engine components you might otherwise want to put on somewhat more reusable drones).
jandrewrogers 3mo ago
Dogfights aren't really a thing for a modern military. What the AI enables is much higher endurance than is feasible with a human in the loop. They planes can stay flying as long as they can be refueled, which is also going AI.
orbital-decay 3mo ago
>Just in the last month we have * AI that goes rogue and hacks billion-dollar companies Except this never happened, it's a piece of marketing. It never "went rogue" but followed an intentional prompt (exploit-related benchmark), with hardly surprising results as the capabilities of this model were well known. >AI controlled autonomous drones in Ukraine and F-16s in America An entirely different kind of AI, not huge generalist models. Neural networks are being experimented with in sensors and control systems since the 80s and are widely used in everything since AlexNet, not sure what's new here, especially "this month" new.
- anirudhc2005 3mo ago
  [dead]
ryandrake 3mo ago
> Is there any line where the public will become deeply concerned? Is someone, somewhere using the wrong bathroom? Or is the wrong colored person crossing an invisible line in the desert? Those seem to be the only issues that reliably get the (American) public to the polls.
krunck 3mo ago
> Is there any line where the public will become deeply concerned? Only when they look out their window and feel immediately threatened by what they see. Humans are shortsighted as fuck.
1234letshaveatw 3mo ago
If your protest were to be successful, would you be doing anything besides putting the USA at a massive disadvantage? What would be the plan exactly, sustenance farming while the rest of the world leaves us behind?

by chis 3mo ago

impulser_ 3mo ago

These systems still require a human to command the jet, they jsut don't have to be inside them. "This critical testing will pave the way for human pilots to seamlessly command and orchestrate teams of autonomous, uncrewed aircraft." The reason they are doing this is because the Military is already building a bunch of autonomous drones and fighter jets that already run on this system so they are retrofitting existing equipment with the same system so they can all fly together. "Ultimately, the capabilities advanced under AIR will enable a wide variety of future joint force operations, including Collaborative Combat Aircraft programs." Which are these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned-unmanned_teaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned-unmanned_teaming And everyone is developing these.

philipwhiuk 3mo ago

> I'm sure they will soon find that AI pilots defeat human ones in dogfights 100% of the time, Unfortunately you're wrong. It's not soon. It's 6 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_AlphaDogfight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_AlphaDogfight

IsTom 3mo ago

Are dogfights still relevant? Isn't it mostly shooting missiles outside of visual range these days?

red-iron-pine 3mo ago
yeah well beyond the line of sight you're either stealth, or you're a target. they're shooting 6+ R-37s a day in Ukraine, for example
bluGill 3mo ago
Dog fights are relevant for training. Also useful for slow drone work. However fighter on fighter is where missles are used
- XorNot 3mo ago
  That's the current meta though is the thing and it could change. There's a plausible world where drone-aircraft are reliable enough at missile evasion that a decent strategy is to get in close and use the cannons because your entire airframe is much more attritable. There's even a plausible reason to do this: opening a weapons bay to shoot a missile generally reduces stealth, and not hauling a bunch of extra rocket motors and mass around could make you lighter, faster and with better engines to do it.
  - exDM69 3mo ago
    From what I have read (from unreliable sources), Ukrainian fighter pilots tried this a few years back and stopped due to too many losses. To engage a slow flying drone with cannons from a fighter jet, they have to get really close while flying close to stall speed. They had some success in shooting down drones but the explosion and the debris caused several lost fighters. Maybe something like a Embraer Super Tucano turboprop fighter with a gunpod could work. But that has very little other use in the battlefield.
    - XorNot 3mo ago
      I mean the other way round: rather then combat drones launching missiles, combat drones which use stealth and speed to close to dogfighting distances with aircraft and engage with their own cannons. It may be that risking some drone airframes for a higher overall kill rate becomes worth it when you're at no risk of losing the pilot, and could be more affordable then the missiles you'd otherwise have to expend (e.g. when you get to things like the Meteor which are very expensive and also use up jet engine components you might otherwise want to put on somewhat more reusable drones).

jandrewrogers 3mo ago

Dogfights aren't really a thing for a modern military. What the AI enables is much higher endurance than is feasible with a human in the loop. They planes can stay flying as long as they can be refueled, which is also going AI.

orbital-decay 3mo ago

>Just in the last month we have * AI that goes rogue and hacks billion-dollar companies Except this never happened, it's a piece of marketing. It never "went rogue" but followed an intentional prompt (exploit-related benchmark), with hardly surprising results as the capabilities of this model were well known. >AI controlled autonomous drones in Ukraine and F-16s in America An entirely different kind of AI, not huge generalist models. Neural networks are being experimented with in sensors and control systems since the 80s and are widely used in everything since AlexNet, not sure what's new here, especially "this month" new.

anirudhc2005 3mo ago
[dead]

ryandrake 3mo ago

> Is there any line where the public will become deeply concerned? Is someone, somewhere using the wrong bathroom? Or is the wrong colored person crossing an invisible line in the desert? Those seem to be the only issues that reliably get the (American) public to the polls.

krunck 3mo ago

> Is there any line where the public will become deeply concerned? Only when they look out their window and feel immediately threatened by what they see. Humans are shortsighted as fuck.

1234letshaveatw 3mo ago

If your protest were to be successful, would you be doing anything besides putting the USA at a massive disadvantage? What would be the plan exactly, sustenance farming while the rest of the world leaves us behind?