10 ms·

I'm shocked at how many people here find loud environments to be totally OK, some even preferring those to quiet ones. If you are working in absolute silence a

I'm shocked at how many people here find loud environments to be totally OK, some even preferring those to quiet ones. If you are working in absolute silence and start to feel uncomfortably, you can always introduce some custom noise, be it a rain sound or ocean shore or noise of any color you like. Feeling chatty? Take Bob to a cooler and chat what you want, he's a chatter, too. On the other hand, it is very problematic (and really rarely effective) to just stand up in the middle of the noisy room and ask everyone, however kindly you manage to do that, to shut up at least for ten minutes, because you absolutely cannot concentrate in this goddamn noise that's been driving you nuts since said Bob came in at 9:05. The point being, I want to be in control of my sound environment. Preferably without the need of earplugs or bulky headphones or other extreme measures like showing up at 7 a.m. or staying late just to get some shit done when the office is finally empty. I cannot concentrate, cannot even think clearly if there is almost any kind of noise - chatter, music, phone talks nearby, traffic noise from the street when the window is open or almost anything else, including my own voice. I know a lot of folks that, like me, would rather spend a night in the forest than an hour in the open space office. From some comments I presume that it is probably impossible to convey to some lucky people with their extreme tolerance towards loud sounds how excruciatingly painful constant, unavoidable noise may be, but let me try anyways: it is a real damn torture resulting in days of not zero but of negative productivity. It's been my worst enemy at every place that I've worked at (close second are constant distractions, but I think these two are cousins), to the extent that my only special requirement for any job or workplace now is: please, let me sit in a quiet place.

sharkweek 14y ago
I'm so fascinated how this varies so much person to person. For me, my biggest "focus" times are almost always with noise-cancelling headphones on with blaring music that I don't have to think too much about (no vocals, etc). Even when I'm alone in the office, I still need something like that to be at maximum productivity. However, if I can hear people talking around me, my mind almost immediately gravitates toward their conversation; one of the biggest distractions to my work.
- JabavuAdams 14y ago
  Yup. People are often surprised that I can hear their conversations. Someone will say something in the next room, with the door open, and I'll answer. They're all WTF you can hear me? Meanwhile I'm all WTF do you expect, I have LoS and you're only 40 feet away.
  - Kluny 14y ago
    Large offspring syndrome?
    - jgritty 14y ago
      Line of sight
- shmageggy 14y ago
  As someone who has worked in music for several years, I find that listening to it makes focusing on any other task, like coding, much more difficult. Even without vocals, I can't help getting distracted by details of the production or composition ("oh that's a great snare sound" or "I would have used a tele for that part"). So I tend to work in complete silence, if possible, and an ironic consequence of devoting myself to music is that I never listen to it anymore.
  - dorkrawk 14y ago
    I have the same problem. Music is too interesting to not be distracting when I'm working on things that require my full attention.
  - embwbam 14y ago
    I had this same problem for years, and it made me sad because I never listened to music. Then I realized that it wasn't the case for music I know really well. Even jazz or complicated folk (Chris thile) is great if I listen to an album over and over. I get in the zone. Try an album where you know almost every musical element and lyric. Put the album on repeat and see if it works.
fudged71 14y ago
The only issue I have about silence is that horrid dead and awkward feeling in the room. I work best in a quite but active environment. And I actually liked working in a small (~6 people) busy startup where everyone was in earshot and you were all on the same page at all times.
petercooper 14y ago
I'm shocked at how many people here find loud environments to be totally OK, some even preferring those to quiet ones. And I'm a little bemused how so many people can cope with living in urban environments rather than rural ones. The noise, smells, neighbors right through the wall, traffic, etc. But I suspect the majority of HNers live in urban environments. Noise tolerance, like urban, population density and crowd tolerance, is personal and subjective and it's tricky to rationalize why people do or do not want to "control" it. I fall asleep more easily if I have chatter around me (so I listen to podcasts). This is unusual but not something I need to rationalize away. It's just how I tick and other people tick other ways.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Urban noise is like a noisy clock ticking in the other room, or an air-conditioning system blowing air around. 99% of the time you honestly have absolutely no perception of it, but that last 1% of the time you can't understand how it wasn't driving you crazy before.
  - joonix 14y ago
    Moderate quiet combined with just one conversation that you can overhear is far more annoying than just general ambient noise like a street.
ghshephard 14y ago
This is probably the most valuable post I've seen on HN in about six months, as it does a good job of communicating, in a way that I can appreciate, how someone else might feel about noise. I go to the office for the noise - In fact, just before a long weekend, or thanksgiving, when my area of the office starts to get a bit quieter, I go absolute batshit, and either have to leave the office and go somewhere where there are people, or start yelling out at random to people to make some noise. The silence is deafening. Some of my most productive coding, documenting, or troubleshooting sessions have been done in coffee shops, where there is a lot of background chatter and activity. I much prefer Open Cube cultures, where you can see and hear people talking. I don't think I would last very long in a "Library Quiet" culture.
- Cthulhu_ 14y ago
  This post, as well as others, just again highlights the 'to each his own' truth; some people prefer silence, some prefer noise. As an employer, if they care about noise when it comes to a working environment, this must be a very hard thing to balance / get right.
michaelochurch 14y ago
You're not alone in this. Open-plan is a fucking disaster. I've thought about getting together all the anxiety/panic sufferers out there for a class action against all the companies with open-plan offices (greater than 10 employees; below 10, you use the space you can get) that make it hard or socially unacceptable to escape. The problem is that I'd be black-balling myself by doing it, but it's a good idea and I hope someone does. I know a couple people whose (long-term) panic problems were caused by open-plan offices. For me, it's open-back visibility. Noise I can shut out. Being visible gives me the creeps. If I am going to be in a place for the amount of time equal to a trans-Atlantic plane ride, then give me a goddamn decent space rather than treating my flight-or-fight response as your own personal toy. Asshole.
- rdl 14y ago
  I think the ideal is private offices (with doors) with enough space for 3 people comfortably sitting and working, and 8 to cram in standing. Offices are cheap compared to engineers. Add some conference rooms of various sizes which can be taken over for weeks (the "war room" model), and some other meeting areas. Plus some lounge open spaces which can be used for working, too (like, say, an actual library type space, where there are people but it is quiet, and also a video area) Even spending $2500/mo/engineer on facilities doesn't seem unreasonable. That could get you quite a nice office. Even $1k/mo should do it (500 square feet per person in a place like Mountain View outside downtown)
  - MattRogish 14y ago
    My "ultimate" office setup is 2 person offices with laptops + lots of big displays. Prefer pairing of the two folks in the office, although not required 100% (I think there are diminishing returns after a certain point). A few empty offices with laptop stands, keyboards/mice, and displays. If you want to pair with someone who isn't in your immediate office, pick up your laptop and head into one of the spare offices so as to not disturb the other office occupant. Lots of shared space for meetings (with high resolution projectors!) and general chit-chat/hangout time, but any actual work-work is designed to happen in the offices. Not that you couldn't take your laptop into the "lounge", but it wouldn't be optimal.
pnathan 14y ago
This is pretty much me. I have reasonably expensive sound-dampening headphones, on which I play music to ensure that I don't hear conversations. I am seeking to enter the zone where I can do what I'm hired to do and spent years and a (small) fortune educating myself to do. Listening to your blather about The Game is not that- nor is listening to your conversation about your code with someone else. Yes, I am that distractable. Everything is that interesting to my magpie-like mind. But conversely, when I take your noises away and move into the mental headspace, then I will make magic happen. I am hired to do magic. There are other people like me. Please give us the space to do what we got hired to do. ;; if you want to talk, please schedule meeting, ping me on irc, or use IM.
- tedmiston 14y ago
  I'm similar. I wear sound-isolating earbuds (not active noise cancelers) when I need to work when other people are around, though I never reach pure focus, at least not what I can achieve when I have genuine quietude. Often the "quiet floor" at the library is really not quiet enough because people find it ok to have small chit chat and whispers every once in a while. I haven't yet found music that doesn't distract me, but I am heavily used SimplyNoise, and their new rain simulator SimplyRain. I'm finding the rain with ~50% intensity and rare thunder to be more comfortable than brown or pink noise myself. Other rain simulators haven't worked this well for me in aiding focus. Would like to hear more of your thoughts.
  - pnathan 14y ago
    I find that the "zone" requires a couple things to be entered for me. - zero to slight physical discomfort. Taking time off to blow nose, stretch from back pain, etc, is not helpful - clear head. Intrusive thoughts and worries, as one might expect, do not help me focus. - Total quiet is nice, but not required. So long as its not insistent or random loudnesses (i.e., doesn't grab my attention), I am OK with it. - Often, a drink ready to hand. No idea why. - With respect to sound, I prefer over-the-ear headphones, since sticking stuff in my ears is not my thing. I favor upbeat/peaceable music - Iron and Wine is one of my standbys. - And finally - and worst of all - an interesting problem. I have to actually want to work on the thing to really get going, otherwise it's a effort where I have to essentially mentally set aside my distractions and prepare to "go deep".
papsosouid 14y ago
It is especially shocking since a very compelling case was made (with actual evidence and everything!) for quiet and against open plan layouts back in 1987. http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-Second/dp/0932633439 http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-S...

sharkweek 14y ago

I'm so fascinated how this varies so much person to person. For me, my biggest "focus" times are almost always with noise-cancelling headphones on with blaring music that I don't have to think too much about (no vocals, etc). Even when I'm alone in the office, I still need something like that to be at maximum productivity. However, if I can hear people talking around me, my mind almost immediately gravitates toward their conversation; one of the biggest distractions to my work.

JabavuAdams 14y ago
Yup. People are often surprised that I can hear their conversations. Someone will say something in the next room, with the door open, and I'll answer. They're all WTF you can hear me? Meanwhile I'm all WTF do you expect, I have LoS and you're only 40 feet away.
- Kluny 14y ago
  Large offspring syndrome?
  - jgritty 14y ago
    Line of sight
shmageggy 14y ago
As someone who has worked in music for several years, I find that listening to it makes focusing on any other task, like coding, much more difficult. Even without vocals, I can't help getting distracted by details of the production or composition ("oh that's a great snare sound" or "I would have used a tele for that part"). So I tend to work in complete silence, if possible, and an ironic consequence of devoting myself to music is that I never listen to it anymore.
- dorkrawk 14y ago
  I have the same problem. Music is too interesting to not be distracting when I'm working on things that require my full attention.
- embwbam 14y ago
  I had this same problem for years, and it made me sad because I never listened to music. Then I realized that it wasn't the case for music I know really well. Even jazz or complicated folk (Chris thile) is great if I listen to an album over and over. I get in the zone. Try an album where you know almost every musical element and lyric. Put the album on repeat and see if it works.

fudged71 14y ago

The only issue I have about silence is that horrid dead and awkward feeling in the room. I work best in a quite but active environment. And I actually liked working in a small (~6 people) busy startup where everyone was in earshot and you were all on the same page at all times.

petercooper 14y ago

I'm shocked at how many people here find loud environments to be totally OK, some even preferring those to quiet ones. And I'm a little bemused how so many people can cope with living in urban environments rather than rural ones. The noise, smells, neighbors right through the wall, traffic, etc. But I suspect the majority of HNers live in urban environments. Noise tolerance, like urban, population density and crowd tolerance, is personal and subjective and it's tricky to rationalize why people do or do not want to "control" it. I fall asleep more easily if I have chatter around me (so I listen to podcasts). This is unusual but not something I need to rationalize away. It's just how I tick and other people tick other ways.

jlgreco 14y ago
Urban noise is like a noisy clock ticking in the other room, or an air-conditioning system blowing air around. 99% of the time you honestly have absolutely no perception of it, but that last 1% of the time you can't understand how it wasn't driving you crazy before.
- joonix 14y ago
  Moderate quiet combined with just one conversation that you can overhear is far more annoying than just general ambient noise like a street.

ghshephard 14y ago

This is probably the most valuable post I've seen on HN in about six months, as it does a good job of communicating, in a way that I can appreciate, how someone else might feel about noise. I go to the office for the noise - In fact, just before a long weekend, or thanksgiving, when my area of the office starts to get a bit quieter, I go absolute batshit, and either have to leave the office and go somewhere where there are people, or start yelling out at random to people to make some noise. The silence is deafening. Some of my most productive coding, documenting, or troubleshooting sessions have been done in coffee shops, where there is a lot of background chatter and activity. I much prefer Open Cube cultures, where you can see and hear people talking. I don't think I would last very long in a "Library Quiet" culture.

Cthulhu_ 14y ago
This post, as well as others, just again highlights the 'to each his own' truth; some people prefer silence, some prefer noise. As an employer, if they care about noise when it comes to a working environment, this must be a very hard thing to balance / get right.

michaelochurch 14y ago

You're not alone in this. Open-plan is a fucking disaster. I've thought about getting together all the anxiety/panic sufferers out there for a class action against all the companies with open-plan offices (greater than 10 employees; below 10, you use the space you can get) that make it hard or socially unacceptable to escape. The problem is that I'd be black-balling myself by doing it, but it's a good idea and I hope someone does. I know a couple people whose (long-term) panic problems were caused by open-plan offices. For me, it's open-back visibility. Noise I can shut out. Being visible gives me the creeps. If I am going to be in a place for the amount of time equal to a trans-Atlantic plane ride, then give me a goddamn decent space rather than treating my flight-or-fight response as your own personal toy. Asshole.

rdl 14y ago
I think the ideal is private offices (with doors) with enough space for 3 people comfortably sitting and working, and 8 to cram in standing. Offices are cheap compared to engineers. Add some conference rooms of various sizes which can be taken over for weeks (the "war room" model), and some other meeting areas. Plus some lounge open spaces which can be used for working, too (like, say, an actual library type space, where there are people but it is quiet, and also a video area) Even spending $2500/mo/engineer on facilities doesn't seem unreasonable. That could get you quite a nice office. Even $1k/mo should do it (500 square feet per person in a place like Mountain View outside downtown)
- MattRogish 14y ago
  My "ultimate" office setup is 2 person offices with laptops + lots of big displays. Prefer pairing of the two folks in the office, although not required 100% (I think there are diminishing returns after a certain point). A few empty offices with laptop stands, keyboards/mice, and displays. If you want to pair with someone who isn't in your immediate office, pick up your laptop and head into one of the spare offices so as to not disturb the other office occupant. Lots of shared space for meetings (with high resolution projectors!) and general chit-chat/hangout time, but any actual work-work is designed to happen in the offices. Not that you couldn't take your laptop into the "lounge", but it wouldn't be optimal.

pnathan 14y ago

This is pretty much me. I have reasonably expensive sound-dampening headphones, on which I play music to ensure that I don't hear conversations. I am seeking to enter the zone where I can do what I'm hired to do and spent years and a (small) fortune educating myself to do. Listening to your blather about The Game is not that- nor is listening to your conversation about your code with someone else. Yes, I am that distractable. Everything is that interesting to my magpie-like mind. But conversely, when I take your noises away and move into the mental headspace, then I will make magic happen. I am hired to do magic. There are other people like me. Please give us the space to do what we got hired to do. ;; if you want to talk, please schedule meeting, ping me on irc, or use IM.

tedmiston 14y ago
I'm similar. I wear sound-isolating earbuds (not active noise cancelers) when I need to work when other people are around, though I never reach pure focus, at least not what I can achieve when I have genuine quietude. Often the "quiet floor" at the library is really not quiet enough because people find it ok to have small chit chat and whispers every once in a while. I haven't yet found music that doesn't distract me, but I am heavily used SimplyNoise, and their new rain simulator SimplyRain. I'm finding the rain with ~50% intensity and rare thunder to be more comfortable than brown or pink noise myself. Other rain simulators haven't worked this well for me in aiding focus. Would like to hear more of your thoughts.
- pnathan 14y ago
  I find that the "zone" requires a couple things to be entered for me. - zero to slight physical discomfort. Taking time off to blow nose, stretch from back pain, etc, is not helpful - clear head. Intrusive thoughts and worries, as one might expect, do not help me focus. - Total quiet is nice, but not required. So long as its not insistent or random loudnesses (i.e., doesn't grab my attention), I am OK with it. - Often, a drink ready to hand. No idea why. - With respect to sound, I prefer over-the-ear headphones, since sticking stuff in my ears is not my thing. I favor upbeat/peaceable music - Iron and Wine is one of my standbys. - And finally - and worst of all - an interesting problem. I have to actually want to work on the thing to really get going, otherwise it's a effort where I have to essentially mentally set aside my distractions and prepare to "go deep".

papsosouid 14y ago

It is especially shocking since a very compelling case was made (with actual evidence and everything!) for quiet and against open plan layouts back in 1987. http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-Second/dp/0932633439 http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-S...