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Codeberg: ToU extension to prohibit LLM-extrusions
- jaggs 3mo agoThis is a bit strange. Are they saying that Codeberg no longer accepts vibe coded projects at all? If so, it seems kind of short sighted. Within a very short period of time all code will be AI code. What then? And as the models improve, along with better code will come better bug fixing etc etc. So the quality of AI code will absolutely surpass that of human code. What then? Will the repositories demand proof of programming ability? Why, when AI will be handling everything anyway. It would be rather like driving schools mandating that all drivers can strip an engine before they're allowed to drive? Very odd.
- Hackbraten 3mo agoThe terms in question don't even mention quality issues. The argument is about the unclear copyright status of generated code. Also malware risk.
- jaggs 3mo agoI don't understand the copyright issue. In many jurisdictions it's already established that AI produced content of any type attaches no copyright. The only copyright which is created comes from human manipulation of said AI content.
- Hackbraten 3mo agoMany jurisdictions aren’t built around case law, and judges tend to focus on their own personal interpretation of written legislation instead of focusing on precedents. It can therefore take many more years until legal consensus forms on a given issue. So I can see why e.g. a German institution would choose act more conservatively than one from countries with a background in common law.
- jaggs 3mo agoYes, of course. It's really interesting to see how there is such a disparity in copyright legislation worldwide. This confusion is likely to continue, as you say, for quite a while. At least until a more standardized recognition of copyright issues relating to AI emerges through global consensus.
- InsideOutSanta 3mo ago> So the quality of AI code will absolutely surpass that of human code. What then? If they change their opinions in the future, they can reevaluate their stance and update their terms. I love using LLMs for coding, but I think it's absolutely fine if people make different decisions. In fact, I think trying to maintain code repositories that are free of LLM-generated code is extremely valuable.
- mschuster91 3mo ago> It would be rather like driving schools mandating that all drivers can strip an engine before they're allowed to drive? It took decades of manufacturers ramping up reliability to the point that driving schools didn't teach you how to change spark plugs, oil swaps and how to change a tire on the road side. I did my license around 2010 in Germany and changing a tire plus how to check for oil and coolant levels was part of the curriculum. And similarly, AI has to go through that "ripening" as well before it can be trusted. At the moment, there is no solution even found on how to prevent hallucinations or in-band signalling attacks, much less actually validated at scale.
- vrganj 3mo ago> So the quality of AI code will absolutely surpass that of human code. This is unfounded speculation, presented as inevitable fact.
- brabel 3mo agoSeems pretty inevitable to me. I already don’t trust myself to write code without it being reviewed by AI . It always finds something wrong!
- vrganj 3mo agoSure, but seems again is a subjective qualifier. It's not the same as presenting something as objective fact.
- lelanthran 3mo ago> I already don’t trust myself to write code without it being reviewed by AI . I agree, skills atrophy is a real thing! (It's a joke, relax... :-))
- inigyou 3mo agoNobody here is complaining about using an LLM as a linter. Some may have concerns about energy use. But that's not Codeberg's problem.
- inigyou 3mo agoCodeberg is for free software.
- jaggs 3mo agoYes, exactly, that's why I like it.
- lproven 3mo agoNo, you don't. Because just upthread you said: > Within a very short period of time all code will be AI code. No it won't. But you outed yourself as a botlicker. So, off you go to somewhere that welcomes botlickers, then.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoThey dont allow private repos, why would they allow vibe-coded stuff. They're a quite opinioninated company
- fs111 3mo agoThey are a non profit, not a company and you can have private repos. You are spreading misinformation.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoDude, just read the TOS, jesus: https://docs.codeberg.org/getting-started/faq/#how-about-private-repositories%3F https://docs.codeberg.org/getting-started/faq/#how-about-pri... It's not misinformation, just read their own page: If you use more than 100 MB of private storage for the use cases mentioned earlier, please send us a request and we can evaluate it. If you do not contribute to any free/libre software project at all, Codeberg is unfortunately not the right place for you. However, check out the alternatives, we're sure you'll find a cozy place for your work.
- dzaima 3mo ago...in what way whatsoever is this "They dont allow private repos"? The size limit is........a size limit, something every host should have; there's one for public codeberg repos too. And while there are restrictions on what private repos are allowed, there are also restrictions on what public repos are allowed too, and it's extremely clear that neither requirement is equivalent to "they don't allow [public / private] repos". My reading of that section is that, besides the size limit, the rules on private repos are, to an extent, less strict than of public repos; anyone who falls under your second quoted sentence couldn't have any public repos either, by the nature of public repos needing to be FOSS.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoIt doesn't matter. You don't shit where you eat. You can, but you shouldn't.
- archargelod 3mo ago> What then? Then all digital systems will be compromised and our civilization will collapse. Without internet and computers, we would all be living happy farmer lives.
- jaggs 3mo agoJoy.
- lproven 3mo ago> our civilization will collapse Well, we are heading for 2º C global warming by 2040, possibly by 2030. And the IPCC and others already pointed out that 2º means the end of civilisation. So, it's coming anyway... but it's the nature of human fsck-ups that they come in clusters. That's why someone coined the term "clusterfsck". So, we have multiple human fsckups coming along all together in the mid-2020s, just as we did in the mid-1930s. Sketchy off the cuff chronology: * Cheap COTS x86 hardware gets good enough to run free OSes from academia (good) * Virtualisation forcibly brought to x86 in defiance of Popek and Goldberg (good) * Broadband everywhere (good) Result: * Mainstream acceptance of FOSS (good) Result: * Cheap mass cloud computing (bad) Side-effect: financial crisis -- the dot-com crash Time passes. International travel gets cheaper. Internet facilitates global trade, globalisation, and awareness of inequalities. Only now you can afford to get there. Some recovery, new internet startups. Result: * Free mass pesudonymous social media (bad) Result: * Weak poor post-communist régimes spread disinformation online in bulk * Cryptocurrencies: imaginary internet money that destroys the climate, facilitates crime, destabilises financial systems Result: * International agreements weakened (NATO, EU, global finance, etc.) * Another financial crisis Same time: * Really large scale cloud computing * Cheaper travel facilitates a pandemic * More money for internet and cloud companies Result * LLMs -- mechanically-recovered text extruders * More, better disinformation; further geopolitical instability Next: * Mass scale climate collapse renders large countries and continents uninhabitable * Kills cheap hi-tech factories * Collapse of bot-slop poisoned tech industry Result: War.
- lelanthran 3mo ago> If so, it seems kind of short sighted. Within a very short period of time all code will be AI code. What then? Then you'll use one of the many, many providers who will host your code. Why is it so important to you that this specific provider has to host vibe-coded stuff when you can host it anywhere else? Is "rest of the world" not a big enough place for you?
- jaggs 3mo agoMainly ethical, EU and open source reasons.
- joshka 3mo agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386
- xlii 3mo ago[flagged]
- greybeard69 3mo agoCodeberg is a German non-profit. If you're going to be hyperbolic, at least get it somewhat right.
- ca1f 3mo ago2030: By popular demand, we will accept code contributions received via a fax machine.
- Anoian 3mo agoAs it is a german company that is not as far fetched as one might think. (I am german and the on requesting this would be government institutions)
- bhaak 3mo agoI wonder if anyone has already written a git over fax extension.
- dr_dshiv 3mo agoI wonder why the sibling is dead — fax is still quite necessary in German govt and health care!
- onlyrealcuzzo 3mo ago2030: scan your asshole to make a commit so we know you're a human.
- pprotas 3mo agoBeautiful way to combine a slippery slope argument with a strawman
- mortarion 3mo agoWell, guess I will take my repositories elsewhere.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoSelf-host ahem. Do it.
- viraptor 3mo agoI really want to, as soon as someone actually implements auth federation in a large system. Forgejo is making some steps, but... It's hard to self-host without making contributions really annoying. For self hosting, you're either large enough for people to go where you are regardless of the system, or you're effectively giving up the changes of having a community.
- inigyou 3mo agoHow about accepting bug reports and patches by email? You could make this an experiment and tell us how it went.
- viraptor 3mo agoI can already tell you - my email has always been out there. Over the last 2+ decades, I received 0 patches and 1 bug report across everything I released. And I really don't want to deal with a patch attachment. So no, I wouldn't say that's the way.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoCodeberg is just a nice logo wrapped around Forgejo/Gitea. I don't really see the appeal besides free hosting + some storage. People should either self-host a gitea/forgejo/gogs server for like 3$ a month on hetzner or just use gitea.com. If you want to share your repos, just use sharemygit.com and spread the repo on coding forums. Personally I find this a much better stimulant for a community, then just having free-flowing code spread around like dust under a bed. + you actually dont need to be the victim of the whims of some ideological git-server provider. Ahem github (master->main), codeberg (no private repos are allowed), gitlab (you have to pay) etc. etc.
- robin_reala 3mo agoPrivate repos are allowed, although with some restrictions: Private repositories are only allowed for things required for FLOSS projects, like storing secrets, team-internal discussions or hiding projects from the public until they're ready for usage and/or contribution. They are also allowed for really small & personal stuff like your journal, config files, ideas or notes, but explicitly not as a personal cloud or media storage. This is reasonable: Codeberg is specifically set up to be a code host for open-source projects, not for closed-source commercial code.
- onesandofgrain 3mo agoUsing codeberg over github makes no sense. Either you use github and github uses your data to train. Or you use codeberg and github just crawl all their content because codeberg doesn't allow non FOSS repos. It's insane to love Codeberg. Codeberg serves no purpose at all. Besides the free stuff ofc.
- m4rc3lv 3mo agoWho determines what a really small project is? All my projects are for personal use, but how do I proof that?
- rapnie 3mo ago> Codeberg is just a nice logo wrapped around Forgejo/Gitea. Not true. Codeberg is first of all a downstream fork [0] of Forgejo, making adaptations for high-scale use. And it offers additional services that Forgejo does not offer. Then it has a full-blown non-profit organization around it that enables community participation. It is the presidium of the community members that decided on the new ToU. Forgejo is a hard fork of Gitea with a GPLv3 license, instead of MIT. Codeberg used to be based on Gitea, but it no longer does for many years now. [0] https://codeberg.org/Codeberg-Infrastructure/forgejo https://codeberg.org/Codeberg-Infrastructure/forgejo
- openmarkand 3mo agoThank you so much codeberg for supporting - artists, - creators, - translators, - writers, - climate
- oeitho 3mo agoGreat decision from Codeberg. I’m only becoming more and more happy with my decision to transition away from GitHub.
- thih9 3mo agoRecent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386 (2h ago, 89 points, 145 comments)
- CodesInChaos 3mo agoI'd avoid using overly opinionated code hosters that capriciously change their ToS to ban content that was allowed before without a very good reason. I'd like my code to survive long after I stop maintaining it, and such changes reduce my trust that a hoster will achieve that. (This specific change wouldn't affect me, since all the code I published was written without AI)
- lucideer 3mo agoI think this is a case where it's a net positive to have both. If Codeberg's opinionated mission isn't aligned with your personal approach to code, you definitely shouldn't host there, but it's genuinely hugely valuable that it exists for those who do share their vision. Both approaches can coexist & it seems net positive to have that diversity of services available. In terms of the risk of data loss -notwithstanding that having any codehost as your sole storage location without backups seems unwise for anything you value - Codeberg's approach to handling ToS violations has to date been extremely personal & not overly automated, so it's reasonably safe to assume artifacts won't be deleted without appropriate notice.
- moritzruth 3mo agoTechnically, depending on how "share" is to be interpreted, this addition does not retroactively make existing projects infringing.
- inigyou 3mo agoIt doesn't matter whether you technically infringe or not, that's irrelevant. It matters whether Codeberg bans your account.
- bringfiregames 3mo agoHahaha.
- f311a 3mo agoI think at this point any attempt to prevent it will fail. AI code is almost everywhere, even in projects that were against it 6 months ago.
- inigyou 3mo agoIt isn't a network firewall. It's saying if you're caught doing this, you'll be banned.
- lelanthran 3mo ago> I think at this point any attempt to prevent it will fail. AI code is almost everywhere, even in projects that were against it 6 months ago. That makes the remaining human-only communities even more valuable.
- surgical_fire 3mo agoThis is not about preventing anything. It's on their Terms of Use. If you violate it, they will delete your account.
- ChrisArchitect 3mo agoSome more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386
- jimmydoe 3mo agoI hope it's more disclosure than ban but ppl have choices so I'm not worried.
- cmrdporcupine 3mo agoBlunt purity tests administered by people with reductionist and categorical thinking. The reality is that even tools produced by concentrated capital and mass appropriation can also increase the productive capacity of a small free-software project whose code remains available under copyleft. They're not "infected" and contagious. They're tools. They can deskill and dispossess workers; they can extend what a particular worker is able to make. Which tendency dominates, under what conditions, and to whose benefit are material questions. "AI bad" is not an answer to them, any more than tech-bro "innovation good" is.
- joepie91_ 3mo ago> Which tendency dominates, under what conditions, and to whose benefit are material questions. Close, but not quite. They are political questions. And crucially, political questions to which we already know the answer in the current sociopolitical environment: it displaces workers, because the balance of power is very heavily tilted towards the wealthy. This is precisely why people oppose AI.
- cmrdporcupine 3mo agoI think you didn't actually read what I wrote. Or you chose to ignore the point. Saying one "opposes AI" itself is already broad stroke categorical thinking. Starting from purported essences rather than on the ground situations. It's just moralistic thinking that hides details and accomplishes nothing. And pointless. Mechanization happens whether you like it or not. It's not mechanization or the machine one should be purposefully organizing against. It's the way it's used. Or you'll just lose. I personally can't think of a better use of an AI "agentic tool" than to write copyleft free software. I'll rightfully "steal" back what they unethically stole, thank you very much. "You touched the tool and are therefore contaminated and all you touched is contaminated" is what I see in the threads, and it's not just wrong it's tactically stupid.
- lproven 3mo agoMore discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003386