4 ms·

> Complex society is a potent counterargument to this hypothesis. Complex society is the demonstration of that hypothesis. Misaligned incentives are widespread

> Complex society is a potent counterargument to this hypothesis. Complex society is the demonstration of that hypothesis. Misaligned incentives are widespread and corruption and inefficiency are the result. > Systems that rely on good people to work are fundamentally flawed. Instead, the game has to be about aligning self interets in favour of the collective. But now you're making a different argument. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" works by random chance. When Evil Corp pays off Candidate A and Pollution Inc pays off Candidate B and then it's Candidate B who gets in and retaliates against Evil Corp for backing the wrong horse, you're getting a good result by chance rather than by design. All it would have taken was for Candidate A to make a better prediction about whether they need to bend the knee to Pollution Inc too in order to win and the same system produces something even worse. How to actually get their incentives to align is an extremely unsolved problem. The best method we know if is to subject them to competition, e.g. break up concentrated markets and place strong limits on what lawmaking can happen centrally, leaving everything possible to state and local governments while allowing people free choice in where they live, so that no one is forced to stay in the jurisdictions that make the worst choices. But the forces of corruption want the exact opposite of that, and have been gaining ground.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> Complex society is the demonstration of that hypothesis. Misaligned incentives are widespread and corruption and inefficiency are the result. Of course they are. But aligned self-interest powers co-operation beyond kin relations and altruism. > "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" works by random chance Orthogonal concept. > How to actually get their incentives to align is an extremely unsolved problem No? It's the story of civilisation. Concepts like taxation; deterrence through corporal punishment, jailing and fines; paying salary for labour; hell, religion–these are all about aligning individual self interests with collective goals. > best method we know if is to subject them to competition I'd argue competition is more an optimiser on these primitives. Not a primitive per se.
- asdfsa32 3mo ago
  > aligned self-interest The qualifier tells you exactly what you're overlooking. self-interest, aside for some narrow exceptions, is often in conflict with collective interest. 1 Million to me is always better than a 1 Million split with everyone.
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    > self-interest, aside for some narrow exceptions, is often in conflict with collective interest Often, but not always. Successful societies amplify that exception. The whole notion of non-kinship based societies rests on mastering this alignment. When it collapses, so does the civilisation. > 1 Million to me is always better than a 1 Million split with everyone The benefits of co-operation mean the real trade-off is 1 million split five ways versus 100 to me. This was almost untrue in the age of conquest. It became barely true with industrialisation. It's massively true in the information age.
    - asdf88990 3mo ago
      Exploitation always provides better ROI than co-operation. Not only is this demonstrated throughout human history but holds true to this day. Go ahead and show me a more profitable industry than diamonds or anything that runs on exploitation even to this day.
      - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
        > Exploitation always provides better ROI than co-operation This is constructed nonsense. Literally upheld by the competitiveness of maritime republics over their neighbourhing land powers.
        asdf88990 3mo ago
        “Maritime Republics” that issued letters of marque for privateers to attack and pillage enemy trade ships? Talk about nonsense.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago

> Complex society is the demonstration of that hypothesis. Misaligned incentives are widespread and corruption and inefficiency are the result. Of course they are. But aligned self-interest powers co-operation beyond kin relations and altruism. > "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" works by random chance Orthogonal concept. > How to actually get their incentives to align is an extremely unsolved problem No? It's the story of civilisation. Concepts like taxation; deterrence through corporal punishment, jailing and fines; paying salary for labour; hell, religion–these are all about aligning individual self interests with collective goals. > best method we know if is to subject them to competition I'd argue competition is more an optimiser on these primitives. Not a primitive per se.

asdfsa32 3mo ago
> aligned self-interest The qualifier tells you exactly what you're overlooking. self-interest, aside for some narrow exceptions, is often in conflict with collective interest. 1 Million to me is always better than a 1 Million split with everyone.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > self-interest, aside for some narrow exceptions, is often in conflict with collective interest Often, but not always. Successful societies amplify that exception. The whole notion of non-kinship based societies rests on mastering this alignment. When it collapses, so does the civilisation. > 1 Million to me is always better than a 1 Million split with everyone The benefits of co-operation mean the real trade-off is 1 million split five ways versus 100 to me. This was almost untrue in the age of conquest. It became barely true with industrialisation. It's massively true in the information age.
  - asdf88990 3mo ago
    Exploitation always provides better ROI than co-operation. Not only is this demonstrated throughout human history but holds true to this day. Go ahead and show me a more profitable industry than diamonds or anything that runs on exploitation even to this day.
    - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
      > Exploitation always provides better ROI than co-operation This is constructed nonsense. Literally upheld by the competitiveness of maritime republics over their neighbourhing land powers.
      - asdf88990 3mo ago
        “Maritime Republics” that issued letters of marque for privateers to attack and pillage enemy trade ships? Talk about nonsense.