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I've been looking into GrapheneOS as a longtime Pixel user who is thinking of becoming a bit more security conscious. But, looking around at its current state R

I've been looking into GrapheneOS as a longtime Pixel user who is thinking of becoming a bit more security conscious. But, looking around at its current state RE: RCS and camera apps, I think it makes the most sense to stick with stock Android. I also have a really niche feature I rely on daily (letting me "wifi call" from one sim over the data line of the other sim), and it's really hard to tell if GrapheneOS supports it. If I can grab my old pixel that's stored in a box at my parents' house on another continent I might give it a try, but GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver.

malmeloo 3mo ago
What's the issue with RCS and camera apps? RCS works (from what i've heard) and you get the same image quality as on stock if you install the pixel camera app. Not sure about that other feature you mentioned, but you can always revert back to stock if you don't like GOS. Restoring a backup is easier than it's ever been nowadays :-).
- zackify 3mo ago
  Yeah I use rcs and you can use the pixel camera app if you want?? Rcs had a bug that was fixed recently though
- annzabelle 3mo ago
  My understanding was that you have to install google messages to get RCS to work and on google's end it gets finicky about device ids. I read a couple blogs where people found RCS to be really unstable on GrapheneOS even with a couple workarounds. If I'm going to have to install a bunch of google products onto my phone anyways, I don't buy the benefits as much. I also had a recent experience being shaken down by a border guard entering Australia, and if he'd asked to go through my phone, explaining that I'm running a weird privacy focused OS he's never seen before seems like it would be a great way to increase my chances of spending a night in airport jail and being put on the next flight to North America. I don't really have anything to hide and appearing like I have things to hide could seriously inconvenience my life. Barring a tourist from entering a country has a very low bar of evidence. Edit: Also the backup restoration is a bit more of a mess for me right now for the same reason I need the dual sim feature. I've got an American esim that's difficult to reactivate without being in America.
  - DANmode 3mo ago
    RCS is unstable on iOS, too, for the same reasons SMS has always been unstable. It’s the nature of the protocol, unfortunately.
    - annzabelle 3mo ago
      Maybe I should've specified: I have seen many anecdotes of RCS being substantially more unreliable on GrapheneOS than it is on stock Android.
      - DANmode 3mo ago
        Finish the play: unreliable in what way, on which side (send, receive)?
        grapheneos 3mo ago
        RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS. It works as well as it does on the stock Pixel OS.
      - OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3mo ago
        So the issue with RCS is that google just this last year made the move from their internal implementation of E2EE for RCS to the standard implementation based on MLS (now that the standard impl is actually viable). They did this quietly in the background and most people didn't notice but in doing so they released new system/OS level services and started relying on those. And notably they did this rollout staggered such that only some people got it and some didn't which made everything way more confusing. GrapheneOS has a bunch of security hardening to restrict crosstalk between apps and services and the assumptions GOS made and the assumptions Google made about how services and apps should be allowed to interact were disjoint. That mismatch in assumptions broke things for a while. And the lack of clear communication from Google about this change combined with various anti-spam/rate limiting issues (Gmessages kept trying to register not expecting to fail and kept slamming the servers which looked like spam and triggered exponential backoff retries) compounded together to render RCS broken for a few weeks during that migration. Notably this was also broken for basically every other non-google/non-samsung android provider for a while as well due to how poorly the migration was communicated by google. Then not long after that was resolved graphene changed how they handled their sandboxing to make it less brittle to google changes and since then there's not been much in the way of issues. The only issue with RCS since then has been a brief break in RCS (~1-2 days) about a month ago due to what was essentially an update to Google's services putting the graphene sandbox briefly out of sync. This was fixed almost immediately on the alpha release channel and just took ~48 hours to move through the alpha->beta->stable pipeline. From this point on now that RCS is more or less all "standard" stuff now you shouldn't see any major breakages. The only situation where you might see one would be when android inevitably opens up RCS outside of the google services walled garden but even then you should be able to continue relying on the google services version until the non-google version is stable.
- grapheneos 3mo ago
  RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS. Google Messages is the only RCS available for Android in practice and is fully supported by the sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer. It provides a special for granting ICC authentication access to Play services for it. Camera features and quality are the same as the stock OS within the same app. Pixel Camera works fine on GrapheneOS. Cross-SIM calling is better supported on GrapheneOS than the stock OS due to our carrier overrides features for force enabling features which aren't otherwise available.
TranquilMarmot 3mo ago
I did have RCS issues with GrapheneOS (on T-Mobile in the US) for a while, but at some point that was fixed and it works flawlessly now. As for camera apps, the stock GrapheneOS camera app is a bit clunky, I just download the stock Android "Camera" off of the Play Store...
- flexagoon 3mo ago
  > I just download the stock Android "Camera" The "stock Android camera" (the one in AOSP) is absolutely horrible. You're probably using Google's Pixel camera app.
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    GrapheneOS doesn't use AOSP Camera and there isn't any official way to install it. Stock means the stock OS on the device which is the Pixel OS with Pixel Camera for Pixels.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - TranquilMarmot 3mo ago
    Um, ackshually https://grapheneos.org/usage#grapheneos-camera-app https://grapheneos.org/usage#grapheneos-camera-app > GrapheneOS includes our own modern camera app focused on privacy and security. It includes modes for capturing images, videos and QR and barcode scanning along with additional modes based on CameraX vendor extensions (Portrait, HDR, Night, Face Retouch and Auto) on devices where they're available (Pixels currently only have support for Night mode). I am indeed using the "Pixel Camera" app, which I would consider the "stock camera" for Pixel devices. It is just labelled as "Camera" in the app drawer.
_blk 3mo ago
Been using GrapheneOS as daily driver for 4 years on three pixels. Problems only start when banking apps start actively sabotaging it by pretending the phone is rooted etc. Normal apps work normally and you get way more control over them. I'll never go back to stock or worse than stock (Samsung) as long as GrapheneOS is around even if they get rid of all security aspects (which of course they won't, I'm just saying security is not the only selling point, de-googling is a big one too.. I didn't de-google but I sure like having the option)
ThePowerOfFuet 3mo ago
> GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver. As someone who has used it exclusively as their mobile OS for three years, it is absolutely ready. Does that mean it's perfect or bug-free? No, but nothing is.
grapheneos 3mo ago
RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS with an app supporting it. Google Messages is the only RCS app for Android available in practice. It fully works on GrapheneOS via the official sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer support for it. Camera features and quality on GrapheneOS are the same as the stock Pixel OS within the same app. Pixel Camera fully works on GrapheneOS even without sandboxed Google Play in the same profile. GrapheneOS fully supports dual SIM and cross-SIM calling. It has much better support for it than the stock Pixel OS because cross-SIM calling is one of the features which can be force enabled for carriers not usually supporting it with the GrapheneOS carrier overrides. That also applies to 5G, VoLTE, Vo5G and VoWiFi where those can be used on carriers where those aren't available with the stock Pixel OS. > but GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver GrapheneOS is a daily driver for many people. The 3 things you've listed as concerns work at least as well in GrapheneOS as the stock OS. You're assuming functionality that's available is missing.

malmeloo 3mo ago

What's the issue with RCS and camera apps? RCS works (from what i've heard) and you get the same image quality as on stock if you install the pixel camera app. Not sure about that other feature you mentioned, but you can always revert back to stock if you don't like GOS. Restoring a backup is easier than it's ever been nowadays :-).

zackify 3mo ago
Yeah I use rcs and you can use the pixel camera app if you want?? Rcs had a bug that was fixed recently though
annzabelle 3mo ago
My understanding was that you have to install google messages to get RCS to work and on google's end it gets finicky about device ids. I read a couple blogs where people found RCS to be really unstable on GrapheneOS even with a couple workarounds. If I'm going to have to install a bunch of google products onto my phone anyways, I don't buy the benefits as much. I also had a recent experience being shaken down by a border guard entering Australia, and if he'd asked to go through my phone, explaining that I'm running a weird privacy focused OS he's never seen before seems like it would be a great way to increase my chances of spending a night in airport jail and being put on the next flight to North America. I don't really have anything to hide and appearing like I have things to hide could seriously inconvenience my life. Barring a tourist from entering a country has a very low bar of evidence. Edit: Also the backup restoration is a bit more of a mess for me right now for the same reason I need the dual sim feature. I've got an American esim that's difficult to reactivate without being in America.
- DANmode 3mo ago
  RCS is unstable on iOS, too, for the same reasons SMS has always been unstable. It’s the nature of the protocol, unfortunately.
  - annzabelle 3mo ago
    Maybe I should've specified: I have seen many anecdotes of RCS being substantially more unreliable on GrapheneOS than it is on stock Android.
    - DANmode 3mo ago
      Finish the play: unreliable in what way, on which side (send, receive)?
      - grapheneos 3mo ago
        RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS. It works as well as it does on the stock Pixel OS.
    - OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3mo ago
      So the issue with RCS is that google just this last year made the move from their internal implementation of E2EE for RCS to the standard implementation based on MLS (now that the standard impl is actually viable). They did this quietly in the background and most people didn't notice but in doing so they released new system/OS level services and started relying on those. And notably they did this rollout staggered such that only some people got it and some didn't which made everything way more confusing. GrapheneOS has a bunch of security hardening to restrict crosstalk between apps and services and the assumptions GOS made and the assumptions Google made about how services and apps should be allowed to interact were disjoint. That mismatch in assumptions broke things for a while. And the lack of clear communication from Google about this change combined with various anti-spam/rate limiting issues (Gmessages kept trying to register not expecting to fail and kept slamming the servers which looked like spam and triggered exponential backoff retries) compounded together to render RCS broken for a few weeks during that migration. Notably this was also broken for basically every other non-google/non-samsung android provider for a while as well due to how poorly the migration was communicated by google. Then not long after that was resolved graphene changed how they handled their sandboxing to make it less brittle to google changes and since then there's not been much in the way of issues. The only issue with RCS since then has been a brief break in RCS (~1-2 days) about a month ago due to what was essentially an update to Google's services putting the graphene sandbox briefly out of sync. This was fixed almost immediately on the alpha release channel and just took ~48 hours to move through the alpha->beta->stable pipeline. From this point on now that RCS is more or less all "standard" stuff now you shouldn't see any major breakages. The only situation where you might see one would be when android inevitably opens up RCS outside of the google services walled garden but even then you should be able to continue relying on the google services version until the non-google version is stable.
grapheneos 3mo ago
RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS. Google Messages is the only RCS available for Android in practice and is fully supported by the sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer. It provides a special for granting ICC authentication access to Play services for it. Camera features and quality are the same as the stock OS within the same app. Pixel Camera works fine on GrapheneOS. Cross-SIM calling is better supported on GrapheneOS than the stock OS due to our carrier overrides features for force enabling features which aren't otherwise available.

TranquilMarmot 3mo ago

I did have RCS issues with GrapheneOS (on T-Mobile in the US) for a while, but at some point that was fixed and it works flawlessly now. As for camera apps, the stock GrapheneOS camera app is a bit clunky, I just download the stock Android "Camera" off of the Play Store...

flexagoon 3mo ago
> I just download the stock Android "Camera" The "stock Android camera" (the one in AOSP) is absolutely horrible. You're probably using Google's Pixel camera app.
- grapheneos 3mo ago
  GrapheneOS doesn't use AOSP Camera and there isn't any official way to install it. Stock means the stock OS on the device which is the Pixel OS with Pixel Camera for Pixels.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- TranquilMarmot 3mo ago
  Um, ackshually https://grapheneos.org/usage#grapheneos-camera-app https://grapheneos.org/usage#grapheneos-camera-app > GrapheneOS includes our own modern camera app focused on privacy and security. It includes modes for capturing images, videos and QR and barcode scanning along with additional modes based on CameraX vendor extensions (Portrait, HDR, Night, Face Retouch and Auto) on devices where they're available (Pixels currently only have support for Night mode). I am indeed using the "Pixel Camera" app, which I would consider the "stock camera" for Pixel devices. It is just labelled as "Camera" in the app drawer.

_blk 3mo ago

Been using GrapheneOS as daily driver for 4 years on three pixels. Problems only start when banking apps start actively sabotaging it by pretending the phone is rooted etc. Normal apps work normally and you get way more control over them. I'll never go back to stock or worse than stock (Samsung) as long as GrapheneOS is around even if they get rid of all security aspects (which of course they won't, I'm just saying security is not the only selling point, de-googling is a big one too.. I didn't de-google but I sure like having the option)

ThePowerOfFuet 3mo ago

> GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver. As someone who has used it exclusively as their mobile OS for three years, it is absolutely ready. Does that mean it's perfect or bug-free? No, but nothing is.

grapheneos 3mo ago

RCS is fully functional on GrapheneOS with an app supporting it. Google Messages is the only RCS app for Android available in practice. It fully works on GrapheneOS via the official sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer support for it. Camera features and quality on GrapheneOS are the same as the stock Pixel OS within the same app. Pixel Camera fully works on GrapheneOS even without sandboxed Google Play in the same profile. GrapheneOS fully supports dual SIM and cross-SIM calling. It has much better support for it than the stock Pixel OS because cross-SIM calling is one of the features which can be force enabled for carriers not usually supporting it with the GrapheneOS carrier overrides. That also applies to 5G, VoLTE, Vo5G and VoWiFi where those can be used on carriers where those aren't available with the stock Pixel OS. > but GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver GrapheneOS is a daily driver for many people. The 3 things you've listed as concerns work at least as well in GrapheneOS as the stock OS. You're assuming functionality that's available is missing.