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And yet it's not rare to find people explaining that the roman empire, the roman armies or the roman cities were "all the same". Yet these persons seem to know
by cauch 3mo ago
And yet it's not rare to find people explaining that the roman empire, the roman armies or the roman cities were "all the same". Yet these persons seem to know that in real life population is not limited to 200 or that there is day-night cycles.
The article talks about it, and makes the point that people who created AOE may have been biased by the same misconception that is also visible more generally. And it is an interesting thing to raise.
edit: in fact, it is illustrated by the ridiculous recent Elon Musk fit about "the odyssey" cast, itself fueled by the misconceptions that "having black guys in a roman army is woke because everyone knows the romans are not black".
- onraglanroad 3mo agoYes but Musk is really astonishingly ignorant. I realise he didn't have a classical education but he's the kind of person who would complain about Othello casting a black man as the main character.
- cauch 3mo agoSure, but it is just an example, he is not the only one thinking this misconceptions is "historical".
- onraglanroad 3mo agoI'm agreeing with you. Rome was the centre of the empire so had every type of person just as London had as the centre of the British empire. And I suppose New York as a major centre of the American empire. Multicultural cities are the rule rather than the exception.
- modo_mario 3mo ago>Rome was the centre of the empire so had every type of person just as London had as the centre of the British empire. And yet the kind of diversity you're probably expecting was incredibly rare in both. There's enough demographic data to know that.
- onraglanroad 3mo agoThat's such a bizarre statement. Diversity was rare in London? Have you ever been there (I lived there for years). London is quite possibly the most diverse city in the world. Edit: I thought perhaps New York might be more diverse, so I hedged but it turns out Toronto is! I would not have guessed.
- modo_mario 3mo agoI was talking about the past when the british empire still existed. New york is also diverse but if you look at demographic data from historically not that long ago and are racialising then it really wasn't. Those shifts are recent.
- complianceowll 3mo ago[flagged]
- onraglanroad 3mo agoHave you ever watched The Gladiator? How many of them were black? They were slaves. Do you know how many slaves were black in the Roman empire? More than had American accents I assure you. None of them spoke English either.
- complianceowll 3mo agoMore times than I can count, bubba. And if you can't differentiate between a producer making a movie in English because its main audience is English speaking and producing a movie that is either: (1) accurate historically; or (2) true to its original story -- than I can't help you, bud.
- onraglanroad 3mo agoYou can't help me anyway because you know far less than I do. You don't know what's historically accurate. You don't understand why there was a black community in Rome. You don't know why there was one in 17th century London. But you still think you know better than me bubba.
- complianceowll 3mo agoThe fact that you are telling me (someone you don't know) "...you know far less than I do" and "You don't know what's historically accurate" and all the other "you don't know"s, tells everyone everything they need to know about who they're speaking to. Thank you for confirming my suspicions!
- onraglanroad 3mo agoCheck out if my statements were accurate. I realise it's not ego confirming to be told you're wrong but you could really see it as an opportunity to learn.
- modo_mario 3mo ago>edit: in fact, it is illustrated by the ridiculous recent Elon Musk fit about "the odyssey" cast, itself fueled by the misconceptions that "having black guys in a roman army is woke because everyone knows the romans are not black". What roman army are you talking about ? Also yeah the vast vast majority of the romans were not black just like how in some african kingdoms later one could see a very rare arab trader or slaver but they were for the vast vast majority black.
- throwaway676712 3mo agoThere are reports of black legionaries in Romain Britain as late as the reign of Septimus Severus (himself not very white if you look at portraits). Black people in the Roman empire isn't that far fetched when you consider Rome had a huge presence in Africa and the Trans-Saharan slave trade was thriving at the time. Rome also had contacts with Merowe (Kush) through Egypt and other client kingdoms in North Africa. It's not a stretch to imagine a small but steady stream of black slaves (possibly manumitted later), mercenaries and merchants trickling into the empire and spreading throughout, especially when one considers that the military was one of the very few social advancement possibilities if you weren't already from an aristocratic or at least land-owning family (Rome would give veterans a money payout equal to all of their 20+ years' service arrears plus a bonus and Roman citizenship at the end of service, allowing one to retire in relative comfort). So they wouldn't be as frequent as in the US, but they definitely wouldn't be an oddity either.
- wasfgwp 3mo agoEquating North Africans who genetically, culturally more interlinked with other Mediterranean people with Sub-Saharan Africans is not exactly right. After all before the Indo-European invasion Europe was almost exclusively settled by middle eastern immigrants (and largely remained so in Southern Europe genetically). > It's not a stretch to imagine It’s not a stretch to imagine a lot of things but there is no evidence that was true to any significant degree (besides the demand for slaves in Roman Egypt was likely substantial enough to absorb most of the demand)