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Imagine you have pictures of someones baptism and the kid was nude. Is it CSAM? I think the program would have to say use but morally I'd say no. The issue with

by xphos 2mo ago

Imagine you have pictures of someones baptism and the kid was nude. Is it CSAM? I think the program would have to say use but morally I'd say no. The issue with client scanning is it has to assume the worst, or they are than liable. If its the person has 20+ different baptism of nude babys well huh that actually might be CSAM because the context of how that concentrated photos implies but even than its hard what if that person actually has 20 God Children its less crazy than one thinks... Especially if they have multiply phones from a single baptism. You might not like pictures that way but honestly I think more important in procescuting CSAM is to go after the large sources of CSAM generation. Its trafficing in East Asia, and in Europe. I think weirdly America actually produces less CSAM in general because Americans are lot more off put by Sex than most other cultures. Abuse definitely happens in the US but making policy decisions like this produces bad policy. Does iCloud rehost the photos to other people I don't really know because I use andriod tbh. If they are being rehosted (I assume to members of your contacts) that can be problematic but I think honestly the issue a lot more complex than just protect the children which the source of critic is a lot attacks against apples are coming from

nylonstrung 2mo ago
> America actually produces less CSAM in general because Americans are lot more off put by Sex than most other cultures The US has the largest pornography industry in the world by a massive margin, and the largest consumption of online pornography per capita Meanwhile should we be surprised that CSAM production is higher in countries like the Philippines that have very weak digital policing, abject poverty, high numbers of street children etc?
- dgellow 2mo ago
  The US is pretty extreme, you have at the same time easy access to all the pornography you want (unless you’re in states that require age verification), and also a very prude culture. It’s not the only place with such contradictions though
  - RajT88 2mo ago
    Texas is particularly wild to me as a midwesterner. All the bibles and megachurches and all that and... They have strip clubs freaking everywhere! Really weird zoning laws as well - I recall seeing a strip club across the street from an Office Depot, next to a deli. The suburbs where I live, you have to go to a seedy part of town so you feel good and ashamed about it. lol Some TV shows rightfully take aim at this contradiction (recently: The Hunting Wives).
    - dgellow 2mo ago
      That’s hilarious!
    - brokenmachine 2mo ago
      My uninformed guess as a non-murican would be that it's just zoned as a business. I doubt there would be a special zoning category exclusively for strip clubs.
      - RajT88 2mo ago
        That varies from state to state, and even city to city. Where I live "adult entertainment" businesses are forced in most cities to use industrial zoning, like in warehouse / factory districts. In Texas, I guess it is a lot more restrictive, but most of those businesses are "grandfathered" in because they were built before the suburban areas got built up and the tougher zoning laws went into place.
- mothballed 2mo ago
  The age of consent in the PI was like 14 until a couple years ago when they changed it to roughly match international norms, in their culture it was considered consensual rather than abuse until very recently.
  - FireBeyond 2mo ago
    You can get married with parental or a judge consent at any age in Mississippi, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. You can get married at 15 in Hawaii and Kansas. You are "grandfathered" into sexual consent (not as in "marital rape" but "no longer statutory rape") when you do so. So we may not want to be lording it too much on "international norms", particularly given that most of the marriages that happen at those ages are not "young couple got pregnant" but "older man in conservative/religious community".
dgellow 2mo ago
> Imagine you have pictures of someones baptism and the kid was nude. Is it CSAM? In some countries it is as far as I’m aware
d1sxeyes 2mo ago
The proposed mechanism was hash matching against known CSAM images, so the baptism photos would not trip the filter because they wouldn’t be hash matches.
- wildfireday2 2mo ago
  But AI algorithms actually deployed by other cloud services do not. You’d hope that they wouldn’t flag a baptism or bris photo but currently fielded systems are flagging doctor-patient medical photos and have ruined lives, so.

by xphos 2mo ago

nylonstrung 2mo ago

> America actually produces less CSAM in general because Americans are lot more off put by Sex than most other cultures The US has the largest pornography industry in the world by a massive margin, and the largest consumption of online pornography per capita Meanwhile should we be surprised that CSAM production is higher in countries like the Philippines that have very weak digital policing, abject poverty, high numbers of street children etc?

dgellow 2mo ago
The US is pretty extreme, you have at the same time easy access to all the pornography you want (unless you’re in states that require age verification), and also a very prude culture. It’s not the only place with such contradictions though
- RajT88 2mo ago
  Texas is particularly wild to me as a midwesterner. All the bibles and megachurches and all that and... They have strip clubs freaking everywhere! Really weird zoning laws as well - I recall seeing a strip club across the street from an Office Depot, next to a deli. The suburbs where I live, you have to go to a seedy part of town so you feel good and ashamed about it. lol Some TV shows rightfully take aim at this contradiction (recently: The Hunting Wives).
  - dgellow 2mo ago
    That’s hilarious!
  - brokenmachine 2mo ago
    My uninformed guess as a non-murican would be that it's just zoned as a business. I doubt there would be a special zoning category exclusively for strip clubs.
    - RajT88 2mo ago
      That varies from state to state, and even city to city. Where I live "adult entertainment" businesses are forced in most cities to use industrial zoning, like in warehouse / factory districts. In Texas, I guess it is a lot more restrictive, but most of those businesses are "grandfathered" in because they were built before the suburban areas got built up and the tougher zoning laws went into place.
mothballed 2mo ago
The age of consent in the PI was like 14 until a couple years ago when they changed it to roughly match international norms, in their culture it was considered consensual rather than abuse until very recently.
- FireBeyond 2mo ago
  You can get married with parental or a judge consent at any age in Mississippi, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. You can get married at 15 in Hawaii and Kansas. You are "grandfathered" into sexual consent (not as in "marital rape" but "no longer statutory rape") when you do so. So we may not want to be lording it too much on "international norms", particularly given that most of the marriages that happen at those ages are not "young couple got pregnant" but "older man in conservative/religious community".

dgellow 2mo ago

> Imagine you have pictures of someones baptism and the kid was nude. Is it CSAM? In some countries it is as far as I’m aware

d1sxeyes 2mo ago

The proposed mechanism was hash matching against known CSAM images, so the baptism photos would not trip the filter because they wouldn’t be hash matches.

wildfireday2 2mo ago
But AI algorithms actually deployed by other cloud services do not. You’d hope that they wouldn’t flag a baptism or bris photo but currently fielded systems are flagging doctor-patient medical photos and have ruined lives, so.