3 ms·

> most people don't need cloud backups What world do you live in?

drnick1 3mo ago
The world where the operating system on my phone (GrapheneOS) isn't conspiring against me or uploading my files to someone else's computer.
- slashdave 3mo ago
  That must also be the world where more than a tiny number of people are using GrapheneOS
- kowbell 3mo ago
  Is your phone also made of indestructible materials so it can't break, and magnetically linked to your person so it can't be stolen? Backups exist so you don't lose precious photos/data if you lose the device. Most People™ do not have the technical knowledge to set up a self-owned backup system, and/or will not realize how badly their future selves will wish they had backups if the setup friction for a self-owned solution is too high to conveniently do it right this second.
  - mannanj 3mo ago
    I think we are closing that gap with AI coding tools. A growing number of people people today can figure out how to run Fable in a co work session, or codex, and that can indeed set up the self-owned backup system for you along with an alternative trustable cloud backup thats not Apple or Google.
    - jcgl 3mo ago
      Technical people, maybe. Even if we hypothetically grant that vibe-coded backup systems can be trusted, deploying, using, and maintaining are still hurdles. And there’s absolutely no way that’s all tractable for the vast, vast majority of the population. Mind you, an average person probably doesn’t even really know what a server is. And these average people need backups just as much as (probably more than) people technical enough to vibe-and-deploy.
      - mannanj 3mo ago
        I think that product people are very much doing development with these tools; and trusting, deploying and maintaining them. The vast majority won’t even know the trust, deployment and maintenance challenges that technical people know and so they won’t worry about them and probably never will need to. Anything very risky will be eventually protected by exposure in the training data. Not unlike how you see in lovable like building tools having built in scan tools. The training data for these mechanisms is growing. As a technical person I deployed a clients site to lovable and now he maintains it. Anything risky? I trust lovable will surface it, and he’s comfortable with additional risk, and platforms like lovable may want to offer contracting help from humans In their platform in The future to help. Why does someone who says “I pay -$x for Google Drive, how much can we make our own clone for?” need to know what a server is? The natural language doesn’t necessitate the technical jargon.
        jcgl 3mo ago
        Even just by narrowing to some definition of "product people," you've cut out the vast majority of the population. > Why does someone who says “I pay -$x for Google Drive, how much can we make our own clone for?” need to know what a server is? The natural language doesn’t necessitate the technical jargon. My point wasn't specifically that they need to know what servers are. Rather, the point is that the average person who needs backups doesn't have the faintest inkling of the smallest fraction of what goes into a backup solution. For these people (the vast majority of the population), you'd need a truly new level of vibing than what exists today. Looking at Lovable's homepage, their tagline is "Create apps and websites by chatting with AI." Your average person probably doesn't even understand that "apps and websites" are primary components of a backup solution. https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
        mannanj 3mo ago
        Yes I get that. And yes I did narrow it in by saying Product people. My point is why would anyone bother to know what goes into building x (a backup solution for example) if building it doesn't require that? Using me as an example, or my non-technical client now doing app development using lovable, we don't care to know how the things being built but just that it works and its reliable and consistent enough. Less than a year ago I'd never built iOS or Mac apps, and now I'm building those - I come from an HTML and frontend world, not the Mac or iOS screen layout world and I still know nothing about that and don't want to either.
- GuB-42 3mo ago
  But you still need backups right? For most people "the cloud" is where you backup stuff. If you have a personal backup strategy that doesn't involve the cloud, you are not "most people". Doing backups the right way take some skill and investment if you want to do it by yourself. It may involve setting up a NAS, and some discipline with physical media. You have to do your own security too. Most people don't want to do that, so, cloud backup it is. It is not a perfect solution, even beyond the privacy considerations, like you can still lose your data by losing your account, but from my personal experience, people lose their data less often now that they have cloud backups.
  - drnick1 3mo ago
    > But you still need backups right? I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android. That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes. It's not like what people have on their phones is generally very valuable.
    - BeetleB 3mo ago
      > I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android. Ouch man. Don't do that. Nextcloud is fairly unreliable. > That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes. And/or use FolderSync to sync to your PC, and then use a proper E2E system to back up to the cloud.
    - tredre3 3mo ago
      - People don't need cloud backups - People's files aren't valuable You're making a lot of claims that are so blatantly false from what I see on my side that I don't know what to make of it. Are you projecting your own needs onto "people"? Or am I the one who's disconnected, and people truly don't care about losing all their photos?

The world where the operating system on my phone (GrapheneOS) isn't conspiring against me or uploading my files to someone else's computer.

slashdave 3mo ago
That must also be the world where more than a tiny number of people are using GrapheneOS
kowbell 3mo ago
Is your phone also made of indestructible materials so it can't break, and magnetically linked to your person so it can't be stolen? Backups exist so you don't lose precious photos/data if you lose the device. Most People™ do not have the technical knowledge to set up a self-owned backup system, and/or will not realize how badly their future selves will wish they had backups if the setup friction for a self-owned solution is too high to conveniently do it right this second.
- mannanj 3mo ago
  I think we are closing that gap with AI coding tools. A growing number of people people today can figure out how to run Fable in a co work session, or codex, and that can indeed set up the self-owned backup system for you along with an alternative trustable cloud backup thats not Apple or Google.
  - jcgl 3mo ago
    Technical people, maybe. Even if we hypothetically grant that vibe-coded backup systems can be trusted, deploying, using, and maintaining are still hurdles. And there’s absolutely no way that’s all tractable for the vast, vast majority of the population. Mind you, an average person probably doesn’t even really know what a server is. And these average people need backups just as much as (probably more than) people technical enough to vibe-and-deploy.
    - mannanj 3mo ago
      I think that product people are very much doing development with these tools; and trusting, deploying and maintaining them. The vast majority won’t even know the trust, deployment and maintenance challenges that technical people know and so they won’t worry about them and probably never will need to. Anything very risky will be eventually protected by exposure in the training data. Not unlike how you see in lovable like building tools having built in scan tools. The training data for these mechanisms is growing. As a technical person I deployed a clients site to lovable and now he maintains it. Anything risky? I trust lovable will surface it, and he’s comfortable with additional risk, and platforms like lovable may want to offer contracting help from humans In their platform in The future to help. Why does someone who says “I pay -$x for Google Drive, how much can we make our own clone for?” need to know what a server is? The natural language doesn’t necessitate the technical jargon.
      - jcgl 3mo ago
        Even just by narrowing to some definition of "product people," you've cut out the vast majority of the population. > Why does someone who says “I pay -$x for Google Drive, how much can we make our own clone for?” need to know what a server is? The natural language doesn’t necessitate the technical jargon. My point wasn't specifically that they need to know what servers are. Rather, the point is that the average person who needs backups doesn't have the faintest inkling of the smallest fraction of what goes into a backup solution. For these people (the vast majority of the population), you'd need a truly new level of vibing than what exists today. Looking at Lovable's homepage, their tagline is "Create apps and websites by chatting with AI." Your average person probably doesn't even understand that "apps and websites" are primary components of a backup solution. https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
        mannanj 3mo ago
        Yes I get that. And yes I did narrow it in by saying Product people. My point is why would anyone bother to know what goes into building x (a backup solution for example) if building it doesn't require that? Using me as an example, or my non-technical client now doing app development using lovable, we don't care to know how the things being built but just that it works and its reliable and consistent enough. Less than a year ago I'd never built iOS or Mac apps, and now I'm building those - I come from an HTML and frontend world, not the Mac or iOS screen layout world and I still know nothing about that and don't want to either.
GuB-42 3mo ago
But you still need backups right? For most people "the cloud" is where you backup stuff. If you have a personal backup strategy that doesn't involve the cloud, you are not "most people". Doing backups the right way take some skill and investment if you want to do it by yourself. It may involve setting up a NAS, and some discipline with physical media. You have to do your own security too. Most people don't want to do that, so, cloud backup it is. It is not a perfect solution, even beyond the privacy considerations, like you can still lose your data by losing your account, but from my personal experience, people lose their data less often now that they have cloud backups.
- drnick1 3mo ago
  > But you still need backups right? I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android. That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes. It's not like what people have on their phones is generally very valuable.
  - BeetleB 3mo ago
    > I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android. Ouch man. Don't do that. Nextcloud is fairly unreliable. > That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes. And/or use FolderSync to sync to your PC, and then use a proper E2E system to back up to the cloud.
  - tredre3 3mo ago
    - People don't need cloud backups - People's files aren't valuable You're making a lot of claims that are so blatantly false from what I see on my side that I don't know what to make of it. Are you projecting your own needs onto "people"? Or am I the one who's disconnected, and people truly don't care about losing all their photos?