4 ms·

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it p

by eesmith 3mo ago

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?

aboardRat4 3mo ago
>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.
- eesmith 3mo ago
  That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.
  - aboardRat4 3mo ago
    Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live? Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal. So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot. If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.
    - eesmith 3mo ago
      There is a tautological issue here - before Real ID everyone had to accept state-issued ids because that's what people had. How does Real ID guarantee (1), (3), or (4) better than the state-issued non-Real IDs? Places are not required to accept all Real IDs as proof of age. A bar, for example, may reject out-of-state ids for proof of age for those who look under 25. Real ID does not prove citizenship (2). Non-citizen residents may have Real ID. If a Canadian claims to be a snowbird tourist and wants to rent your guest house for five months, and you are worried that he might happen to be an illegal migrant and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, how does Real ID help? He has no Real ID, only Canadian ID. Note also that the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin. Landlords must provide equal opportunities regardless of nationality or immigration status. Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law. Even better, if that person shows you a valid tribal id from a federally recognized tribe, but which is not Real ID compliant, will you rent to him? The feds consider it a valid alternative to Real ID.
      - aboardRat4 3mo ago
        Okay, I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, the system as you are describing it makes no sense. >Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin Maybe the USA is like this. I haven't and seen such an interpretation of "national origin" anywhere else in the world. I have only ever heard the term "national origin" with respect to _citizens_. E.g. you were a Pakistani, married a Chinese took Chinese citizenship, you are a Chinese citizen, but your "national origin" is still Pakistani. Of course discrimination on the basis of something which is not in the documents is illegal. You are a Chinese no matter where you were born. But if you are born as Pakistani and are still a Pakistani, then the term "national origin" makes no sense. >Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law. Again, possibly the USA is unique in this respect. Where I live (as well as my previous country) the anti discrimination law is strict, but it only extends to the government institutions. And I'm finding it baffling that it may happen to be otherwise in other countries. State universities cannot reject students based on race or sex. Buses must carry everyone regardless. Police must accept complains from all. Of course. But prohibiting private people from freely exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them) is such a mind-blowing example of tyranny that it's hard to even imagine for my third-world brain.
yeputons 3mo ago
> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872 To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight problems), tough luck, I'm not aware of any other government-issued photo ID in the UK. Foreigners previously had BRPs, but they are not issued since 2025, everything is electronic now. There is also the "PASS" scheme where private providers (like banks) can issue plastic cards with photos, but I've heard they are regularly rejected by various venues as proof of age and/or identity, there is no legal requirement to accept them, just a recommendation. And I can imagine non-UK entities care about these about as much as they do about ISIC. TSA was definitely unhappy when I tried using ISIC about ten years ago for a US domestic flight.
- eesmith 3mo ago
  From that link, 'All this keeps the game interesting and fun, taking weeks and sometimes months to complete'. Some people in the US take longer than that to get Real ID. Like, elderly black people born in the Jim Crow era where birth records simply weren't kept for them. https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-cant-get-real-id-because-she-cant-prove-she-was-born-in-u-s/ https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-ca... , or a missing 50-year-old marriage record - https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id-application-rejected-over-missing-50-year-old-marriage-record-cincinnati-certification-copy-proper-documentation-law-tsa-transportation-security-administration-enforcement-flight-travel-orlando-international-airport-raise-awareness https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id... . Are you proving your age for a store or a concert venue for alcohol reasons? Don't people age out once they look over 25? Or do venues check for other reasons? I've read about the big backlash when a national ID scheme for the UK is proposed, so I presume the benefits aren't all that high. Like, when you check into a hotel, do you have to show ID? https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k10953453-I_D_requirements_for_UK_citizens_in_UK_Hotels-United_Kingdom.html https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k1095345... tells me that it's uncommon. While in the US, I nearly always have to show ID for an overnight room. Or, in many place in the US, everyone is IDed for alcohol, even if you are 70 years old, which annoys a lot of people who are clearly old enough to drink. Even better, since US privacy laws are so poor, these ID checks also gather demographic information, identify 'high-value customers', and collaborate with other places to ban people -- rather like the facial recognition systems you all have in the UK. Maybe Brits want to avoid normalizing more id checks?

by eesmith 3mo ago

aboardRat4 3mo ago

>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.

eesmith 3mo ago
That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.
- aboardRat4 3mo ago
  Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live? Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal. So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot. If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.
  - eesmith 3mo ago
    There is a tautological issue here - before Real ID everyone had to accept state-issued ids because that's what people had. How does Real ID guarantee (1), (3), or (4) better than the state-issued non-Real IDs? Places are not required to accept all Real IDs as proof of age. A bar, for example, may reject out-of-state ids for proof of age for those who look under 25. Real ID does not prove citizenship (2). Non-citizen residents may have Real ID. If a Canadian claims to be a snowbird tourist and wants to rent your guest house for five months, and you are worried that he might happen to be an illegal migrant and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, how does Real ID help? He has no Real ID, only Canadian ID. Note also that the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin. Landlords must provide equal opportunities regardless of nationality or immigration status. Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law. Even better, if that person shows you a valid tribal id from a federally recognized tribe, but which is not Real ID compliant, will you rent to him? The feds consider it a valid alternative to Real ID.
    - aboardRat4 3mo ago
      Okay, I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, the system as you are describing it makes no sense. >Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin Maybe the USA is like this. I haven't and seen such an interpretation of "national origin" anywhere else in the world. I have only ever heard the term "national origin" with respect to _citizens_. E.g. you were a Pakistani, married a Chinese took Chinese citizenship, you are a Chinese citizen, but your "national origin" is still Pakistani. Of course discrimination on the basis of something which is not in the documents is illegal. You are a Chinese no matter where you were born. But if you are born as Pakistani and are still a Pakistani, then the term "national origin" makes no sense. >Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law. Again, possibly the USA is unique in this respect. Where I live (as well as my previous country) the anti discrimination law is strict, but it only extends to the government institutions. And I'm finding it baffling that it may happen to be otherwise in other countries. State universities cannot reject students based on race or sex. Buses must carry everyone regardless. Police must accept complains from all. Of course. But prohibiting private people from freely exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them) is such a mind-blowing example of tyranny that it's hard to even imagine for my third-world brain.

yeputons 3mo ago

> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872 To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight problems), tough luck, I'm not aware of any other government-issued photo ID in the UK. Foreigners previously had BRPs, but they are not issued since 2025, everything is electronic now. There is also the "PASS" scheme where private providers (like banks) can issue plastic cards with photos, but I've heard they are regularly rejected by various venues as proof of age and/or identity, there is no legal requirement to accept them, just a recommendation. And I can imagine non-UK entities care about these about as much as they do about ISIC. TSA was definitely unhappy when I tried using ISIC about ten years ago for a US domestic flight.

eesmith 3mo ago
From that link, 'All this keeps the game interesting and fun, taking weeks and sometimes months to complete'. Some people in the US take longer than that to get Real ID. Like, elderly black people born in the Jim Crow era where birth records simply weren't kept for them. https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-cant-get-real-id-because-she-cant-prove-she-was-born-in-u-s/ https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-ca... , or a missing 50-year-old marriage record - https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id-application-rejected-over-missing-50-year-old-marriage-record-cincinnati-certification-copy-proper-documentation-law-tsa-transportation-security-administration-enforcement-flight-travel-orlando-international-airport-raise-awareness https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id... . Are you proving your age for a store or a concert venue for alcohol reasons? Don't people age out once they look over 25? Or do venues check for other reasons? I've read about the big backlash when a national ID scheme for the UK is proposed, so I presume the benefits aren't all that high. Like, when you check into a hotel, do you have to show ID? https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k10953453-I_D_requirements_for_UK_citizens_in_UK_Hotels-United_Kingdom.html https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k1095345... tells me that it's uncommon. While in the US, I nearly always have to show ID for an overnight room. Or, in many place in the US, everyone is IDed for alcohol, even if you are 70 years old, which annoys a lot of people who are clearly old enough to drink. Even better, since US privacy laws are so poor, these ID checks also gather demographic information, identify 'high-value customers', and collaborate with other places to ban people -- rather like the facial recognition systems you all have in the UK. Maybe Brits want to avoid normalizing more id checks?