6 ms·

A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.

redsocksfan45 3mo ago
[dead]
axus 3mo ago
In the US, we like to reduce state capacity. Helps limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power.
- dpark 3mo ago
  This seems deeply delusional at this point.
  - markdown 3mo ago
    As delusional as thinking the 2nd amendment will help "limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power".
    - whimsicalism 3mo ago
      no, it’s actually the same delusion as that one
- anticensor 3mo ago
  Except such a federal ID already exists: the Passport Card. Make it free to obtain and mandatory to use.
  - mothballed 3mo ago
    Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support which applies to a surprisingly large portion of America, particularly historically oppressed minorities. It would be quite foolish to rely on that for identification if you have children as a simple divorce could put you in instant arrears and cause you to lose your ID.
    - aboardRat4 3mo ago
      >Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support This is clearly ridiculous and not in any way connected to the reason passports exist. It's just purely bureaucratic tyranny. Even the stated goal of "preventing people from running away to other countries" doesn't work, because the USA doesn't have border service check the passport _on leaving_ the country.
      - mothballed 3mo ago
        There is no check on leaving, and our neighbor Mexico not only usually doesn't check, it's constitution* explicitly prohibits requiring passports for entry. And when you return US has to take you back, if citizen, passport or not. So you can easily go to and from Mexico without passport. Virtually every time I go to Mexico, I'm one of very small % with passport going either direction. * This is debated and some questionable court cases that actually protected rights of indigenous Mexicans to travel are cited as reasons why this constitutional provision isn't in effect (even though the case was clearly written to protect indigenous rather than justify overthrowing the constitution), but go to a land border with Mexico and 9 of 10 times I find they follow the constitution and don't check passport.
        aboardRat4 3mo ago
        So basically the passport can be made a universal ID, fairly easily, it's just some people in the higher circles don't want it to be.
- coldtea 3mo ago
  And how's that been working out for you? Not asking whether "reducing state capacity" helps with that. Asking how's that "reducing" going.
  - aboardRat4 3mo ago
    Yeah, I'm also curious. The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.
    - axus 3mo ago
      The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification. Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government. We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world are so much worse if it happens in America.
      - aboardRat4 3mo ago
        >The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification. And what stops the US from mandating that States provide their citizens with a universal ID of an agreed form? Just like with the elections?
eesmith 3mo ago
The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?
- aboardRat4 3mo ago
  >How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.
  - eesmith 3mo ago
    That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.
    - aboardRat4 3mo ago
      Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live? Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal. So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot. If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.
      - 3mo ago

redsocksfan45 3mo ago

[dead]

axus 3mo ago

In the US, we like to reduce state capacity. Helps limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power.

dpark 3mo ago
This seems deeply delusional at this point.
- markdown 3mo ago
  As delusional as thinking the 2nd amendment will help "limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power".
  - whimsicalism 3mo ago
    no, it’s actually the same delusion as that one
anticensor 3mo ago
Except such a federal ID already exists: the Passport Card. Make it free to obtain and mandatory to use.
- mothballed 3mo ago
  Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support which applies to a surprisingly large portion of America, particularly historically oppressed minorities. It would be quite foolish to rely on that for identification if you have children as a simple divorce could put you in instant arrears and cause you to lose your ID.
  - aboardRat4 3mo ago
    >Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support This is clearly ridiculous and not in any way connected to the reason passports exist. It's just purely bureaucratic tyranny. Even the stated goal of "preventing people from running away to other countries" doesn't work, because the USA doesn't have border service check the passport _on leaving_ the country.
    - mothballed 3mo ago
      There is no check on leaving, and our neighbor Mexico not only usually doesn't check, it's constitution* explicitly prohibits requiring passports for entry. And when you return US has to take you back, if citizen, passport or not. So you can easily go to and from Mexico without passport. Virtually every time I go to Mexico, I'm one of very small % with passport going either direction. * This is debated and some questionable court cases that actually protected rights of indigenous Mexicans to travel are cited as reasons why this constitutional provision isn't in effect (even though the case was clearly written to protect indigenous rather than justify overthrowing the constitution), but go to a land border with Mexico and 9 of 10 times I find they follow the constitution and don't check passport.
      - aboardRat4 3mo ago
        So basically the passport can be made a universal ID, fairly easily, it's just some people in the higher circles don't want it to be.
coldtea 3mo ago
And how's that been working out for you? Not asking whether "reducing state capacity" helps with that. Asking how's that "reducing" going.
- aboardRat4 3mo ago
  Yeah, I'm also curious. The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.
  - axus 3mo ago
    The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification. Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government. We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world are so much worse if it happens in America.
    - aboardRat4 3mo ago
      >The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification. And what stops the US from mandating that States provide their citizens with a universal ID of an agreed form? Just like with the elections?

eesmith 3mo ago

The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.) You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID. I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve. How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?

aboardRat4 3mo ago
>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant? They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.
- eesmith 3mo ago
  That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.
  - aboardRat4 3mo ago
    Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live? Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal. So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot. If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.
    - 3mo ago