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> 10 weeks is not enough time to learn any skill. What? So, all of the military training methods don't exist? Military bootcamps are 6-8 weeks and you learn a

by zedshaw 14y ago

> 10 weeks is not enough time to learn any skill. What? So, all of the military training methods don't exist? Military bootcamps are 6-8 weeks and you learn a massive fuck-ton of skills. Hell, college courses are less than this in hours spent and people learn crazy amounts of stuff. So how can you conclude that it's not possible to learn any skill despite a fairly huge amount of available evidence to the exact contrary proving you wrong?

meaty 14y ago
In military boot camps, you learn enough not to get killed or court martial, not how to do a job properly. (ex British territorial army) I'm not saying it's not possible, but the marketed result versus the actual result here is disparate.
- zedshaw 14y ago
  Uh, no, I was in the Army and I learned way more than not getting killed or court martialed. In fact, you saying that says either your military sucks at training or you're lying. It also doesn't answer my direct criticism of your comment. You claimed you can't learn any skill in 10 weeks, which is complete bullshit. People learn quite a lot of things in less time, so saying that is stupid. Maybe you meant to say something less hyperbolic like, "I doubt that someone could master programming in 10 weeks." This is true, but then they don't claim to create master programmers, they claim to create junior programmers, which I (as someone who actually does train people for a living) can say is entirely possible.
  - meaty 14y ago
    The military, well the British Army which is my only experience (not strictly true [1]), does suck at training. I mean really suck. Most knowledge is pumped down via training manuals written by people detached from the equipment or scenarios or is done via assimilation. That inevitably ends up with people who have ascended to a higher rank due to ass-licking giving years out of date advice to lower ranks. At the end of the day, it's a pyramid of process and chaos. Thank fuck I had the chance to resign my commission (cuts cuts cuts) before I got shipped to Iraq. I'm saying that you cannot learn any skill to a reasonably merchantable level in 10 weeks. Regarding hyperbole, we haven't forgotten "Rails Is a Ghetto" yet... [1] My background is EE, particularly RF comms. I took the technical lead on a project and had to write training guides for the US military to use certain communications equipment. The mantra amongst the specifications was "dumb it down so a brain damaged monkey could operate it".
    - zedshaw 14y ago
      So, you get to say something incredibly invalid and easily disproven like "you can not learn any skill in 10 weeks" because I wrote an essay in 2008? Four years ago? Let me guess, you aren't very good at this whole logical argument thing which why you're just wrong here. Again, merchantable skill is subjective and based on the free market, so no, I could learn a "merchantable" skill in 2 hours. Cleaning toilets comes to mind as one very such skill. You're just wrong. It's possible to learn skills in 10 weeks of 8-10 hour days, and learn them well. It's possible to become a junior programmer in that time. It's possible to learn a ton of different skill in that time. You actually meant mastering these skills, and just refuse to admit it.
      - meaty 14y ago
        No that's not what I suggested. Read it again a couple of times, carefully. I think it was a logical and concise argument. Perhaps a better statement is: "any semi technical skill takes way more than 10 weeks to become productive and not a risk". Are you happy now?
        dools 14y ago
        I still disagree. There are a shitload of very technical skills you can learn in 10 weeks proficiently enough to produce valuable work. Risk management is up to the employer.
bradleyjg 14y ago
Bootcamp isn't about skills, it's about breaking down the civilian mentality and then building back up a military one. For those destined to be more than cannon fodder, the skills training comes in advanced courses that last months or occasionally years (e.g. nuclear sub courses).
- meaty 14y ago
  Yes like NEETS as a concrete example which is very very good: http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/ http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/
  - shurane 14y ago
    Looks promising! Thanks. Any other learning material from the Military?
- zedshaw 14y ago
  Uh no, it's about skills, and you learn a lot of them in 8 weeks which disproves that you can't learn any in 10. Unless you're in the Navy, then it's about keeping clean so you don't piss off everyone else on the ship. :-)

by zedshaw 14y ago

meaty 14y ago

In military boot camps, you learn enough not to get killed or court martial, not how to do a job properly. (ex British territorial army) I'm not saying it's not possible, but the marketed result versus the actual result here is disparate.

zedshaw 14y ago
Uh, no, I was in the Army and I learned way more than not getting killed or court martialed. In fact, you saying that says either your military sucks at training or you're lying. It also doesn't answer my direct criticism of your comment. You claimed you can't learn any skill in 10 weeks, which is complete bullshit. People learn quite a lot of things in less time, so saying that is stupid. Maybe you meant to say something less hyperbolic like, "I doubt that someone could master programming in 10 weeks." This is true, but then they don't claim to create master programmers, they claim to create junior programmers, which I (as someone who actually does train people for a living) can say is entirely possible.
- meaty 14y ago
  The military, well the British Army which is my only experience (not strictly true [1]), does suck at training. I mean really suck. Most knowledge is pumped down via training manuals written by people detached from the equipment or scenarios or is done via assimilation. That inevitably ends up with people who have ascended to a higher rank due to ass-licking giving years out of date advice to lower ranks. At the end of the day, it's a pyramid of process and chaos. Thank fuck I had the chance to resign my commission (cuts cuts cuts) before I got shipped to Iraq. I'm saying that you cannot learn any skill to a reasonably merchantable level in 10 weeks. Regarding hyperbole, we haven't forgotten "Rails Is a Ghetto" yet... [1] My background is EE, particularly RF comms. I took the technical lead on a project and had to write training guides for the US military to use certain communications equipment. The mantra amongst the specifications was "dumb it down so a brain damaged monkey could operate it".
  - zedshaw 14y ago
    So, you get to say something incredibly invalid and easily disproven like "you can not learn any skill in 10 weeks" because I wrote an essay in 2008? Four years ago? Let me guess, you aren't very good at this whole logical argument thing which why you're just wrong here. Again, merchantable skill is subjective and based on the free market, so no, I could learn a "merchantable" skill in 2 hours. Cleaning toilets comes to mind as one very such skill. You're just wrong. It's possible to learn skills in 10 weeks of 8-10 hour days, and learn them well. It's possible to become a junior programmer in that time. It's possible to learn a ton of different skill in that time. You actually meant mastering these skills, and just refuse to admit it.
    - meaty 14y ago
      No that's not what I suggested. Read it again a couple of times, carefully. I think it was a logical and concise argument. Perhaps a better statement is: "any semi technical skill takes way more than 10 weeks to become productive and not a risk". Are you happy now?
      - dools 14y ago
        I still disagree. There are a shitload of very technical skills you can learn in 10 weeks proficiently enough to produce valuable work. Risk management is up to the employer.

bradleyjg 14y ago

Bootcamp isn't about skills, it's about breaking down the civilian mentality and then building back up a military one. For those destined to be more than cannon fodder, the skills training comes in advanced courses that last months or occasionally years (e.g. nuclear sub courses).

meaty 14y ago
Yes like NEETS as a concrete example which is very very good: http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/ http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/
- shurane 14y ago
  Looks promising! Thanks. Any other learning material from the Military?
zedshaw 14y ago
Uh no, it's about skills, and you learn a lot of them in 8 weeks which disproves that you can't learn any in 10. Unless you're in the Navy, then it's about keeping clean so you don't piss off everyone else on the ship. :-)