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I was pretty floored when I saw homeopathy cold remedies on the same shelf as actual cold medicine at a US Walgreens. I'm sure people who aren't very careful en

by naner 14y ago

I was pretty floored when I saw homeopathy cold remedies on the same shelf as actual cold medicine at a US Walgreens. I'm sure people who aren't very careful end up purchasing the homeopathic item by accident. This bizarre experience made me wonder about the companies that formulate and produce this stuff. Do they actually go through the trouble of diluting things to ridiculous level or do they just skip the tedious part and sell inert capsules? You have to believe most people that work for these companies are con men and not actually true believers.

lukeschlather 14y ago
From a scientific perspective there may be a decent case for putting placebo cold medication next to the real stuff. If the real stuff has 50% efficacy but has side effects x, y, and z, there's something to be said for selling someone a 30% effective placebo with no real side effects. It makes us queasy, since you're effectively selling nothing, but at the same time nothing is not always nothing.
- polyfractal 14y ago
  And, at the end of the day, the patient is just suffering from a cold. Medicine or no, they will get better in a week. Placebo can help alleviate discomfort and pain to some degree, because that is something the mind has some sway over. So in cases of simple illness...placebo is a somewhat valid medicine. Now, when people start taking homeopathy for cancer or whatever, that's a different story. EDIT: To be clear, I think it's kinda ridiculous they are allowed to sell it too. But I suppose it isn't too different from "nutritional supplements" that have ambiguous value.
  - corin_ 14y ago
    I don't have time to look up any decent sources right now, and it's very possible that there are far more studies that disagree with this, but I'm sure there has been at least some research showing that placebos can affect more than just the most obvious things that the mind controls, e.g. pain. Obviously any placebo relies on tricking the mind, but the mind can have a subconscious effect on how your body does anything, including fighting cancer.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > So in cases of simple illness...placebo is a somewhat valid medicine. Not if there is an implied but nonexistent cause-effect relationship. And especially if money changes hands. And most especially if a real treatment is passed up in favor of the placebo. > Placebo can help alleviate discomfort and pain to some degree, because that is something the mind has some sway over. The above sentence doesn't mean what you think it does. It starts out claiming that placebos work, then it undercuts its own premise. The above claims about placebos only apply to real, genuine placebos, not cheap imitation placebos. :)
    - polyfractal 14y ago
      Yeah, I see your point, especially about money exchanging hands. But if the product promises to "reduce pain and discomfort associated with the Flu", does it matter what the mechanism is if the patient ultimately feels a reduction of those symptoms? I suppose there is a very fine grey line between that and just outright lying to someone about a product.
      - lutusp 14y ago
        > But if the product promises to "reduce pain and discomfort associated with the Flu", does it matter what the mechanism is if the patient ultimately feels a reduction of those symptoms? Yes, because making such a promise constitutes fraud unless the active agent is the cause leading to the effect. Placebos aren't a cause, they are an illusion. I guess it would be all right if the customers could pay using imaginary money. If I claim to have a cure for the common cold, and if I shake a dried gourd over the cold sufferer for a week, do I have the right to claim victory and collect money? > I suppose there is a very fine grey line between that and just outright lying to someone about a product. The line is much clearer than that. If the treatment isn't validated in objective double-blind clinical trials, it's not a medical treatment and no claims can be made for it. I can't tell you how many advertisements I've seen that said "Clinically tested!" but without also mentioning, "The tests failed!" :)
        polyfractal 14y ago

by naner 14y ago

lukeschlather 14y ago

From a scientific perspective there may be a decent case for putting placebo cold medication next to the real stuff. If the real stuff has 50% efficacy but has side effects x, y, and z, there's something to be said for selling someone a 30% effective placebo with no real side effects. It makes us queasy, since you're effectively selling nothing, but at the same time nothing is not always nothing.

polyfractal 14y ago
And, at the end of the day, the patient is just suffering from a cold. Medicine or no, they will get better in a week. Placebo can help alleviate discomfort and pain to some degree, because that is something the mind has some sway over. So in cases of simple illness...placebo is a somewhat valid medicine. Now, when people start taking homeopathy for cancer or whatever, that's a different story. EDIT: To be clear, I think it's kinda ridiculous they are allowed to sell it too. But I suppose it isn't too different from "nutritional supplements" that have ambiguous value.
- corin_ 14y ago
  I don't have time to look up any decent sources right now, and it's very possible that there are far more studies that disagree with this, but I'm sure there has been at least some research showing that placebos can affect more than just the most obvious things that the mind controls, e.g. pain. Obviously any placebo relies on tricking the mind, but the mind can have a subconscious effect on how your body does anything, including fighting cancer.
- lutusp 14y ago
  > So in cases of simple illness...placebo is a somewhat valid medicine. Not if there is an implied but nonexistent cause-effect relationship. And especially if money changes hands. And most especially if a real treatment is passed up in favor of the placebo. > Placebo can help alleviate discomfort and pain to some degree, because that is something the mind has some sway over. The above sentence doesn't mean what you think it does. It starts out claiming that placebos work, then it undercuts its own premise. The above claims about placebos only apply to real, genuine placebos, not cheap imitation placebos. :)
  - polyfractal 14y ago
    Yeah, I see your point, especially about money exchanging hands. But if the product promises to "reduce pain and discomfort associated with the Flu", does it matter what the mechanism is if the patient ultimately feels a reduction of those symptoms? I suppose there is a very fine grey line between that and just outright lying to someone about a product.
    - lutusp 14y ago
      > But if the product promises to "reduce pain and discomfort associated with the Flu", does it matter what the mechanism is if the patient ultimately feels a reduction of those symptoms? Yes, because making such a promise constitutes fraud unless the active agent is the cause leading to the effect. Placebos aren't a cause, they are an illusion. I guess it would be all right if the customers could pay using imaginary money. If I claim to have a cure for the common cold, and if I shake a dried gourd over the cold sufferer for a week, do I have the right to claim victory and collect money? > I suppose there is a very fine grey line between that and just outright lying to someone about a product. The line is much clearer than that. If the treatment isn't validated in objective double-blind clinical trials, it's not a medical treatment and no claims can be made for it. I can't tell you how many advertisements I've seen that said "Clinically tested!" but without also mentioning, "The tests failed!" :)
      - polyfractal 14y ago