5 ms·

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

ahelwer 14y ago
When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.
- oellegaard 14y ago
  Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.
  - jnoller 14y ago
    You may have skipping reading all the details. Some of which include that local law enforcement may become involved at any point. This can be requested by the accuser, the conference staff - or even the accused should evidence be in dispute[1]. The actions of conference staff are a route for dispute resolution for things that may not warrant law enforcement involvement, and if law enforcement should be involved, it will be and will obviously supersede any decisions by staff. More importantly however, is that law enforcement involvement is painful, potentially ruinous, and does not take into account the actual conference nor its other attendees. Hypothetical: corroborated harassment incident; law enforcement is called in at the request of the accused/accuser. Action is taken. This does not remove the harasser from the site, nor does it trigger further sanctions against him or her within the community or conference unless such a set of explicit rules is codified. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents-staff/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...
  - mjg59 14y ago
    You have exactly the same legal protection you had in the past. Conferences are private events, and conference organisers have always asserted the right to exclude attendees for any reason.
  - jacobian 14y ago
    Sheesh, there's just so much that's wrong, disingenuous, and outright hilariously silly about these couple of sentences that I hardly know where to begin. Let's see... * You don't have a right to attend a private event. The organizers of any event - a conference, a concert, whatever - have the right to ask you to leave at any point for any reason. You are, in fact, more protected with a code of conduct in place because it articulates the process instead of leaving it up to the whims of the organizers. * You don't have any right to due process or "legal protection"; the conference organizers aren't the police! They're not deciding what's "truth" or not; they're deciding whather to allow you to stay at an event they're responsible for. * If you're talking about PyCon, it's hardly "a few local programmers". PyCon is a conference with a large staff, a budget of over a million dollars, and an established NPO (the PSF) behind it. * If you can't trust the organizers of an event, then why the heck are you attending? * People don't just randomly make up harassment. In reality, harassment is vastly underreported because of the way victims of harassment are routinely ignored, shamed, and blamed. * Wanna know a really good way to not be accused of harassment? Don't harass anyone! If you find not being a harasser so hard, then yeah you probably shouldn't go to the event.
    - oellegaard 14y ago
      I did not claim to have a right to attend a conference. If someone, man or woman, would report sexual harassment in Denmark, it would be done to the police, who would take proper actions. Actually, I explicitly do not want the conference staff to act like a conference police. Keep in mind that if they throw someone out of a conference because of harassment which proves wrong later - this persons image will be forever destroyed in the community. I'm not talking about PyCon, it was mentioned that this applies to anything sponsored by PSF (correct me, if I'm wrong). I don't personally know who organizes every event I attend, I attend events because I think the subject is interesting or because people I find interesting attends or speaks. I agree harassment is underreported but there have been issues with fake reports in the media as well.
      - ahelwer 14y ago
        It's rather telling that you relate to and sympathize more with the perpetrators than the victims of sexual harassment. Something to consider.
jnoller 14y ago
I explained why the foundation should take an active role here: http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct - read the whole thing, especially the points about sponsorship and branding.
- oellegaard 14y ago
  I did read the whole thing before writing my original reply. I see why you need to do it for PyCon, but I can't see why you need to demand it for the things you sponsor in PSF.
  - jnoller 14y ago
    We need it for conferences we sponsor just as other sponsors require it from PyCon. Requiring it from conferences taking our money, our logo and our name (nee: endorsement) means that protections are in place for our investment and community
kenneth_reitz 14y ago
Harassment is not a political issue.
- oellegaard 14y ago
  Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)
  - ahelwer 14y ago
    This stuff happens in all countries, okay? It's a real problem. It's not just "some countries."
  - jnoller 14y ago
    This was stated elsewhere; but the PSF is taking a stance wherein it does not condone harassment and discrimination for events it provides money and support to even if the local standard is to allow for those social norms.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    Well, there are also some countries that consider the pre-occupation with things such as "sexual harassment" that some Americans have obsessive and indicative of a society that relegates even basic human relations to the courtroom and to arcane prudish codes of conduct. You took something valid (like being against sexual harassment when it's a bloody actual harassment) and you overblown it out of proportion. Italians or French, e.g., have no problem with things such as office romance. For example, the French did not give a flying duck if their President had a known ex-marital affair and even a child (like Miterrand), whereas Americans had this whole BS "moral outrage" when Clinton had an affair. Heck, Italians even voted multiple times into office a Prime Minister that is known to have wild parties with models and prostitutes (Berlusconi). Not everybody in the world is as uptight as white Americans.
jacobian 14y ago
> Living in a [...] gender-equal country [...] Which country is that?
- oellegaard 14y ago
  Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)
  - mjg59 14y ago
    Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?
    - oellegaard 14y ago
      No, but I assume it doesn't have to be in the code of conduct, that there should be a staff meeting when a murder occurs, to decide if the local law enforcement should be involved?
      - wnight 14y ago
        Event terms and conditions would become nicer if they didn't list the (already illegal) things that will get you expelled from the event but just said "Any criminal act, and especially the removal by police for these acts, will result in immediate expulsion except in the sole judgement of the event staff". Even if the event wants to say something about it above and beyond that, it frees them up to say "We all know the law on this, but to encourage our ideal atmosphere (which is X) the voluntary by attendance code of conduct will also be ...." without repeating all the mundane bits of the law. tl;dr, don't remind me something is illegal, remind me certain attitudes are unwelcome and leave it there.
      - mjg59 14y ago
        Laws aren't enough to prevent things from happening. The fact that Denmark has equality laws doesn't mean that it's gender-equal, and it certainly doesn't mean that there's no sexual harassment. There are strong social mores against murder. There aren't strong social mores against sexual harassment. Having a code of conduct helps indicate to attendees that whatever their personal beliefs about sexual harassment are, and regardless of what local laws there may be about it, it won't be tolerated.
theorique 14y ago
PSF isn't enforcing laws. It's just setting a basic standard of behavior - be nice, don't be a jerk, don't harass people based on their personal characteristics. And on the flip side, it's saying to people who otherwise might be reluctant to participate, thinking they would face prejudice, "hey, we got your back, prejudice against you is not allowed here". Seems pretty innocuous.

ahelwer 14y ago

When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.

oellegaard 14y ago
Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.
- jnoller 14y ago
  You may have skipping reading all the details. Some of which include that local law enforcement may become involved at any point. This can be requested by the accuser, the conference staff - or even the accused should evidence be in dispute[1]. The actions of conference staff are a route for dispute resolution for things that may not warrant law enforcement involvement, and if law enforcement should be involved, it will be and will obviously supersede any decisions by staff. More importantly however, is that law enforcement involvement is painful, potentially ruinous, and does not take into account the actual conference nor its other attendees. Hypothetical: corroborated harassment incident; law enforcement is called in at the request of the accused/accuser. Action is taken. This does not remove the harasser from the site, nor does it trigger further sanctions against him or her within the community or conference unless such a set of explicit rules is codified. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents-staff/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...
- mjg59 14y ago
  You have exactly the same legal protection you had in the past. Conferences are private events, and conference organisers have always asserted the right to exclude attendees for any reason.
- jacobian 14y ago
  Sheesh, there's just so much that's wrong, disingenuous, and outright hilariously silly about these couple of sentences that I hardly know where to begin. Let's see... * You don't have a right to attend a private event. The organizers of any event - a conference, a concert, whatever - have the right to ask you to leave at any point for any reason. You are, in fact, more protected with a code of conduct in place because it articulates the process instead of leaving it up to the whims of the organizers. * You don't have any right to due process or "legal protection"; the conference organizers aren't the police! They're not deciding what's "truth" or not; they're deciding whather to allow you to stay at an event they're responsible for. * If you're talking about PyCon, it's hardly "a few local programmers". PyCon is a conference with a large staff, a budget of over a million dollars, and an established NPO (the PSF) behind it. * If you can't trust the organizers of an event, then why the heck are you attending? * People don't just randomly make up harassment. In reality, harassment is vastly underreported because of the way victims of harassment are routinely ignored, shamed, and blamed. * Wanna know a really good way to not be accused of harassment? Don't harass anyone! If you find not being a harasser so hard, then yeah you probably shouldn't go to the event.
  - oellegaard 14y ago
    I did not claim to have a right to attend a conference. If someone, man or woman, would report sexual harassment in Denmark, it would be done to the police, who would take proper actions. Actually, I explicitly do not want the conference staff to act like a conference police. Keep in mind that if they throw someone out of a conference because of harassment which proves wrong later - this persons image will be forever destroyed in the community. I'm not talking about PyCon, it was mentioned that this applies to anything sponsored by PSF (correct me, if I'm wrong). I don't personally know who organizes every event I attend, I attend events because I think the subject is interesting or because people I find interesting attends or speaks. I agree harassment is underreported but there have been issues with fake reports in the media as well.
    - ahelwer 14y ago
      It's rather telling that you relate to and sympathize more with the perpetrators than the victims of sexual harassment. Something to consider.

jnoller 14y ago

I explained why the foundation should take an active role here: http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct - read the whole thing, especially the points about sponsorship and branding.

oellegaard 14y ago
I did read the whole thing before writing my original reply. I see why you need to do it for PyCon, but I can't see why you need to demand it for the things you sponsor in PSF.
- jnoller 14y ago
  We need it for conferences we sponsor just as other sponsors require it from PyCon. Requiring it from conferences taking our money, our logo and our name (nee: endorsement) means that protections are in place for our investment and community

kenneth_reitz 14y ago

Harassment is not a political issue.

oellegaard 14y ago
Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)
- ahelwer 14y ago
  This stuff happens in all countries, okay? It's a real problem. It's not just "some countries."
- jnoller 14y ago
  This was stated elsewhere; but the PSF is taking a stance wherein it does not condone harassment and discrimination for events it provides money and support to even if the local standard is to allow for those social norms.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  Well, there are also some countries that consider the pre-occupation with things such as "sexual harassment" that some Americans have obsessive and indicative of a society that relegates even basic human relations to the courtroom and to arcane prudish codes of conduct. You took something valid (like being against sexual harassment when it's a bloody actual harassment) and you overblown it out of proportion. Italians or French, e.g., have no problem with things such as office romance. For example, the French did not give a flying duck if their President had a known ex-marital affair and even a child (like Miterrand), whereas Americans had this whole BS "moral outrage" when Clinton had an affair. Heck, Italians even voted multiple times into office a Prime Minister that is known to have wild parties with models and prostitutes (Berlusconi). Not everybody in the world is as uptight as white Americans.

jacobian 14y ago

> Living in a [...] gender-equal country [...] Which country is that?

oellegaard 14y ago
Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)
- mjg59 14y ago
  Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?
  - oellegaard 14y ago
    No, but I assume it doesn't have to be in the code of conduct, that there should be a staff meeting when a murder occurs, to decide if the local law enforcement should be involved?
    - wnight 14y ago
      Event terms and conditions would become nicer if they didn't list the (already illegal) things that will get you expelled from the event but just said "Any criminal act, and especially the removal by police for these acts, will result in immediate expulsion except in the sole judgement of the event staff". Even if the event wants to say something about it above and beyond that, it frees them up to say "We all know the law on this, but to encourage our ideal atmosphere (which is X) the voluntary by attendance code of conduct will also be ...." without repeating all the mundane bits of the law. tl;dr, don't remind me something is illegal, remind me certain attitudes are unwelcome and leave it there.
    - mjg59 14y ago
      Laws aren't enough to prevent things from happening. The fact that Denmark has equality laws doesn't mean that it's gender-equal, and it certainly doesn't mean that there's no sexual harassment. There are strong social mores against murder. There aren't strong social mores against sexual harassment. Having a code of conduct helps indicate to attendees that whatever their personal beliefs about sexual harassment are, and regardless of what local laws there may be about it, it won't be tolerated.

theorique 14y ago

PSF isn't enforcing laws. It's just setting a basic standard of behavior - be nice, don't be a jerk, don't harass people based on their personal characteristics. And on the flip side, it's saying to people who otherwise might be reluctant to participate, thinking they would face prejudice, "hey, we got your back, prejudice against you is not allowed here". Seems pretty innocuous.