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I'm always so alienated (sorry) by the excitement around things like this. People start fantasizing about FTL and space arks and there is just no evidence that

I'm always so alienated (sorry) by the excitement around things like this. People start fantasizing about FTL and space arks and there is just no evidence that any of that is possible, desirable, effective, anything really. I know I'm a killjoy, but I do think there's something negative about the impact of science fiction on engineers. Like, the people who tend (no offense) to be the most literal, black and white thinkers get exposed to art and instead of processing it as the output of human creativity, they start to imagine that it's desirable or even real.

ClumsyPilot 3mo ago
There is too much fantasy about distant habitable planet and not enough about making a planet in solar system habitable or building artificial habitats The second is likely easier than the first
- chrsw 3mo ago
  Not just likely easier. Far easier. They're so far apart on any reasonable effort scale that the comparison is basically meaningless.
- xboxnolifes 3mo ago
  Or even before that, fixing the habitat of the planet we are living on. A lot of the current cultural fantasy of colonizing space feels less like expanding the human frontier and more like escapism.
eightysixfour 3mo ago
> Like, the people who tend (no offense) to be the most literal, black and white thinkers get exposed to art and instead of processing it as the output of human creativity, they start to imagine that it's desirable or even real. Why can't you process their fantasizing about it as an output of human creativity?
- throw4847285 3mo ago
  No, it doesn't seem very creative to me. I don't think I've ever sounded so cynical in my life, but something about the way sci-fi fandom bleeds into real science really makes me deeply uncomfortable.
  - whimsicalism 3mo ago
    cynicism and critique are comfortable positions imo. i appreciate the relatively newfound cultural shift back towards earnestness (although i can already feel the pendulum starting to swing back)
    - throw4847285 3mo ago
      I generally see myself as an earnest person, but some kinds of earnestness read as cynical to me.
      - whimsicalism 3mo ago
        skimming your comment history, to me you seem very comfortable occupying the sociocultural critic position which is to some degree inherently cynical imo. i say that because i also recognize it in myself
        throw4847285 3mo ago
        Yeah, but I'm only cynical in relation to what I see as the orthodoxies of the kind of people who post on HN. When I say it like that, it sounds pathetic. And in fact, it is. Yet, here we are.
        DavidPiper 3mo ago
        FWIW I don't think it's pathetic at all, and I have the same reaction as you to a lot of things on HN. There are a wide variety of topics that bring out various biases and other cognitive blind spots in people, and bots. Space travel seems to be one of the more harmless ones, but I agree it's frustrating to see people implicitly or explicitly skip over things like near-light-speed travel as solved problem, then reject arguments from others as "not thinking big enough", etc. In general, divorce from reality doesn't seem to be related to intelligence at all in my experience. I'm sure there are plenty of times when my wishful thinking gets in the way too.
whimsicalism 3mo ago
there is clear reason why this would be desirable for many, the others - sure.
square_usual 3mo ago
You can't imagine someone getting excited about difficult problems as an engineer? And you can't imagine why there's creativity involved? I don't know, it feels like you can't process the output of human creativity.
- throw4847285 3mo ago
  I love human creativity. I don't like pseudo-science, especially coming from people who believe they are above it (and fall prey to it anyway).
ufmace 3mo ago
Well I'll give you that most of the stuff about accessing other star systems is deeply unrealistic now. But pretty much all of the awesome stuff that we've actually created in the last 150+ years started out with someone's imagination running away on something that didn't seem very realistic at the time. The idea of having artificial satellites was once a pipe dream, and now we have so many of them we have to redo our numbering scheme to track them all properly. I'm not gonna hold my breath for the other star system stuff, but if they manage to get the kinks worked out of Starship and it delivers full reusability as promised, it seems like off-world colonies might actually be possible in our lifetimes. If that gets up and running, we might plausibly develop enough space infrastructure that some of the ideas don't seem too crazy anymore.

ClumsyPilot 3mo ago

There is too much fantasy about distant habitable planet and not enough about making a planet in solar system habitable or building artificial habitats The second is likely easier than the first

chrsw 3mo ago
Not just likely easier. Far easier. They're so far apart on any reasonable effort scale that the comparison is basically meaningless.
xboxnolifes 3mo ago
Or even before that, fixing the habitat of the planet we are living on. A lot of the current cultural fantasy of colonizing space feels less like expanding the human frontier and more like escapism.

eightysixfour 3mo ago

> Like, the people who tend (no offense) to be the most literal, black and white thinkers get exposed to art and instead of processing it as the output of human creativity, they start to imagine that it's desirable or even real. Why can't you process their fantasizing about it as an output of human creativity?

throw4847285 3mo ago
No, it doesn't seem very creative to me. I don't think I've ever sounded so cynical in my life, but something about the way sci-fi fandom bleeds into real science really makes me deeply uncomfortable.
- whimsicalism 3mo ago
  cynicism and critique are comfortable positions imo. i appreciate the relatively newfound cultural shift back towards earnestness (although i can already feel the pendulum starting to swing back)
  - throw4847285 3mo ago
    I generally see myself as an earnest person, but some kinds of earnestness read as cynical to me.
    - whimsicalism 3mo ago
      skimming your comment history, to me you seem very comfortable occupying the sociocultural critic position which is to some degree inherently cynical imo. i say that because i also recognize it in myself
      - throw4847285 3mo ago
        Yeah, but I'm only cynical in relation to what I see as the orthodoxies of the kind of people who post on HN. When I say it like that, it sounds pathetic. And in fact, it is. Yet, here we are.
        DavidPiper 3mo ago
        FWIW I don't think it's pathetic at all, and I have the same reaction as you to a lot of things on HN. There are a wide variety of topics that bring out various biases and other cognitive blind spots in people, and bots. Space travel seems to be one of the more harmless ones, but I agree it's frustrating to see people implicitly or explicitly skip over things like near-light-speed travel as solved problem, then reject arguments from others as "not thinking big enough", etc. In general, divorce from reality doesn't seem to be related to intelligence at all in my experience. I'm sure there are plenty of times when my wishful thinking gets in the way too.

whimsicalism 3mo ago

there is clear reason why this would be desirable for many, the others - sure.

square_usual 3mo ago

You can't imagine someone getting excited about difficult problems as an engineer? And you can't imagine why there's creativity involved? I don't know, it feels like you can't process the output of human creativity.

throw4847285 3mo ago
I love human creativity. I don't like pseudo-science, especially coming from people who believe they are above it (and fall prey to it anyway).

ufmace 3mo ago

Well I'll give you that most of the stuff about accessing other star systems is deeply unrealistic now. But pretty much all of the awesome stuff that we've actually created in the last 150+ years started out with someone's imagination running away on something that didn't seem very realistic at the time. The idea of having artificial satellites was once a pipe dream, and now we have so many of them we have to redo our numbering scheme to track them all properly. I'm not gonna hold my breath for the other star system stuff, but if they manage to get the kinks worked out of Starship and it delivers full reusability as promised, it seems like off-world colonies might actually be possible in our lifetimes. If that gets up and running, we might plausibly develop enough space infrastructure that some of the ideas don't seem too crazy anymore.