6 ms·

Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

50 points by lelf 14y ago

jnoller 14y ago
Fwiw, I'm not the chairman of the PSF, just one of a handful of directors. Van Lindberg is chairman. I am however chair for PyCon and I am responsible for pushing this through.
- ceol 14y ago
  Thank you for doing so!
- subsystem 14y ago
  As someone who more and more is giving up on the "promise of less bullshit" in the software community I think this is a step in the right direction. Good job.
- japhyr 14y ago
  I teach high school math and science, and I throw in as much programming-related content as I can, such as teaching intro to python units whenever I get the chance. None of my students fit the model of a traditional young programmer. No one in my small town is a professional programmer, so none of my students ever see or hear of anyone doing high-level technical work. But many of them love programming once they get a feel for it. The culture of pycon is entirely welcoming to my students. I won't be able to take students this year, because the travel costs from southeast Alaska are pretty steep. But I have shared with my students the specific ways that the python community supports different groups of non-traditional programmers: pycon policies, pyladies, the Boston Python Workshop initiatives, etc. Knowing there are specific efforts to support non-traditional programmers makes my students much more open to considering a career in a technical field. The work that Jesse and others are doing is having a significant impact on a large number of people. It's an iceberg, as well; whatever visible impact you see, there are 10 times as many people benefiting from this work.
  - jnoller 14y ago
    Thank you - an an Alaska (Wasilla/Palmer) expat, the work you're doing sounds great. And thank you for the support. let me know what else we can do.
  - aroberge 14y ago
    Your students can see the Pycon talks online.
  - selenamarie 14y ago
    Please join https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/operation-computer-science-teacher-connect https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/operation... if you'd like to chat more with Python developers and teachers doing the same types of things. I'm working with K12 teachers to find ways to connect with Python developers for curriculum development, networking and just getting more computer science taught in schools. :)
HarryHirsch 14y ago
The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.
- GiraffeNecktie 14y ago
  The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Actually, I'm not even sure that "enforcement" is all that relevant. It's more about articulating the norms of behavior so that people can learn from them and grow.
  - jnoller 14y ago
    Correct. And due to having things like this in place, our sponsorship for PyCon has grown, as has the number of female speakers and attendees. It's a net win for everyone.
  - theorique 14y ago
    The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Bingo. Furthermore, any of the stuff in the CoC seems pretty reasonable - don't express prejudice, don't harass people. It's really "Social Graces 101" level stuff, not some bid to constrain free speech.
  - HarryHirsch 14y ago
    Articulating the norms of behavior? The norms in this code are the basic skills of interacting in society, anyone past the age of 17 should have internalized them. More: one expects anyone past that age of live by them, and consequently one can (and should!) deal with any violator in the appropiate manner.
    - lutze 14y ago
      Yes I agree, but it's not like this has come apropos of nothing. Unfortunately a small minority apparently don't know how to behave appropriately around others, and need this shit to be spelled out.
oellegaard 14y ago
Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.
- ahelwer 14y ago
  When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.
  - oellegaard 14y ago
    Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.
    - jnoller 14y ago
      You may have skipping reading all the details. Some of which include that local law enforcement may become involved at any point. This can be requested by the accuser, the conference staff - or even the accused should evidence be in dispute[1]. The actions of conference staff are a route for dispute resolution for things that may not warrant law enforcement involvement, and if law enforcement should be involved, it will be and will obviously supersede any decisions by staff. More importantly however, is that law enforcement involvement is painful, potentially ruinous, and does not take into account the actual conference nor its other attendees. Hypothetical: corroborated harassment incident; law enforcement is called in at the request of the accused/accuser. Action is taken. This does not remove the harasser from the site, nor does it trigger further sanctions against him or her within the community or conference unless such a set of explicit rules is codified. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents-staff/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...
mrtron 14y ago
This feels like a "Caution this beverage is hot" label on a coffee cup. Shouldn't it be obvious to not act like a jerk at a Python event?
- jnoller 14y ago
  Quoting myself http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct (recursion depth exceeded): BUT EVERYONE IS NICE, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN COOL I know. Honestly, I do. Except for minor incident that I recall, PyCon US has largely been free of issues such as this. Every meetup, conference, etc I have been to has been filled with nice, kind people and largely jerk-free. This is a testament to the community as a whole. So, you ask: if we're all chill cool people, and nothing bad has happened, why have one? Because it won't always be that way. If we continue to expand and grow (and we will), and if we continue to grow even more diverse - in sex, race, creed and geography - the chances of "an incident" will grow. In fact, I know incidents have happened and been dealt with. So no, the unspoken rule of "don't be a jerk" doesn't scale very well. And that's what we're talking about - a scalability problem. The social norms and rules of a group of five people, or one hundred people may float. What about 200? 500? 800? How about 2300 people (the attendance of PyCon 2012)? No. "Don't be a Jerk" may be our unspoken, unwritten community motto; but its not enough for those on the outside looking in. Those outside of these circles want clear lines on behavioral expectations. They want to know that not only are there unwritten rules about not being a jerk - they want to know what will happen if a Jerk Occurs. This sets their expectations, and it gives them comfort. It makes them feel more welcome, more safe. Especially when they're part of a group who has been put under constant objectification and harassment for decades in our industry.
  - chernevik 14y ago
    There is no problem but people are not to be trusted so we need a Rule. What could go wrong?
  - mrtron 14y ago
    I completely understand the spot you are in and can see how you are rationalizing it. The policy approach just doesn't fit for me (nor does it need to). I only commented because I do care about the Python community and hope to attend this event. When I read the article I can't help substituting "label on cup" and reading incident as a coffee burn.] Seeing "we now have an anti-harassment policy!" followed up by "and women are specifically encouraged to attend and apply." makes me cringe. It doesn't feel like the way to encourage my wife (engineer) or any of the numerous women I have developed software with that the conference is an awesome event.
pretoriusB 14y ago
Another strike against free speech for the PC police.
- jnoller 14y ago
  And how is offering guidelines for inappropriate behavior including explicit guidelines for conflict resolution trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event? I guess harassment falls under free speech. My bad dog.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event? Speech should be free in public AND in private events. Else you get societies giving lip service to the idea of "free speech" in public, and then destroying the public spaces of discourse. (How about Google censoring your email or blog? It's their private infrastructure after all). >I guess harassment falls under free speech. No, it's just that white Americans have no idea what harassment means. Some guy showing a slide with a bikini model at a Ruby conference was enough to cause a "moral outrage" a couple of years ago. (And, no, it's not about the relevance of the slide, which meant as a joke: if he had shown something equally non relavant, like a Star Wars joke or a LoTR joke, everybody would have been fine with it).
- Sanddancer 14y ago
  You have every right to speak like a knuckle-dragging troglodyte. The PyCon folks also have every right to say for you to do it somewhere other than their private convention space.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    Well, if George Carlin was a python developer, I for one, would have loved to see him speak. And I have no problem with how Linus talks, without concern for self-censorship. Funny how we owe a large of the success of open source (and most of Linux) to a "knuckle-dragging troglodyte"...

50 points by lelf 14y ago

Fwiw, I'm not the chairman of the PSF, just one of a handful of directors. Van Lindberg is chairman. I am however chair for PyCon and I am responsible for pushing this through.

ceol 14y ago
Thank you for doing so!
subsystem 14y ago
As someone who more and more is giving up on the "promise of less bullshit" in the software community I think this is a step in the right direction. Good job.
japhyr 14y ago
I teach high school math and science, and I throw in as much programming-related content as I can, such as teaching intro to python units whenever I get the chance. None of my students fit the model of a traditional young programmer. No one in my small town is a professional programmer, so none of my students ever see or hear of anyone doing high-level technical work. But many of them love programming once they get a feel for it. The culture of pycon is entirely welcoming to my students. I won't be able to take students this year, because the travel costs from southeast Alaska are pretty steep. But I have shared with my students the specific ways that the python community supports different groups of non-traditional programmers: pycon policies, pyladies, the Boston Python Workshop initiatives, etc. Knowing there are specific efforts to support non-traditional programmers makes my students much more open to considering a career in a technical field. The work that Jesse and others are doing is having a significant impact on a large number of people. It's an iceberg, as well; whatever visible impact you see, there are 10 times as many people benefiting from this work.
- jnoller 14y ago
  Thank you - an an Alaska (Wasilla/Palmer) expat, the work you're doing sounds great. And thank you for the support. let me know what else we can do.
- aroberge 14y ago
  Your students can see the Pycon talks online.
- selenamarie 14y ago
  Please join https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/operation-computer-science-teacher-connect https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/operation... if you'd like to chat more with Python developers and teachers doing the same types of things. I'm working with K12 teachers to find ways to connect with Python developers for curriculum development, networking and just getting more computer science taught in schools. :)

HarryHirsch 14y ago

The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.

GiraffeNecktie 14y ago
The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Actually, I'm not even sure that "enforcement" is all that relevant. It's more about articulating the norms of behavior so that people can learn from them and grow.
- jnoller 14y ago
  Correct. And due to having things like this in place, our sponsorship for PyCon has grown, as has the number of female speakers and attendees. It's a net win for everyone.
- theorique 14y ago
  The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Bingo. Furthermore, any of the stuff in the CoC seems pretty reasonable - don't express prejudice, don't harass people. It's really "Social Graces 101" level stuff, not some bid to constrain free speech.
- HarryHirsch 14y ago
  Articulating the norms of behavior? The norms in this code are the basic skills of interacting in society, anyone past the age of 17 should have internalized them. More: one expects anyone past that age of live by them, and consequently one can (and should!) deal with any violator in the appropiate manner.
  - lutze 14y ago
    Yes I agree, but it's not like this has come apropos of nothing. Unfortunately a small minority apparently don't know how to behave appropriately around others, and need this shit to be spelled out.

oellegaard 14y ago

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

ahelwer 14y ago
When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.
- oellegaard 14y ago
  Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.
  - jnoller 14y ago
    You may have skipping reading all the details. Some of which include that local law enforcement may become involved at any point. This can be requested by the accuser, the conference staff - or even the accused should evidence be in dispute[1]. The actions of conference staff are a route for dispute resolution for things that may not warrant law enforcement involvement, and if law enforcement should be involved, it will be and will obviously supersede any decisions by staff. More importantly however, is that law enforcement involvement is painful, potentially ruinous, and does not take into account the actual conference nor its other attendees. Hypothetical: corroborated harassment incident; law enforcement is called in at the request of the accused/accuser. Action is taken. This does not remove the harasser from the site, nor does it trigger further sanctions against him or her within the community or conference unless such a set of explicit rules is codified. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents-staff/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...

mrtron 14y ago

This feels like a "Caution this beverage is hot" label on a coffee cup. Shouldn't it be obvious to not act like a jerk at a Python event?

jnoller 14y ago
Quoting myself http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct (recursion depth exceeded): BUT EVERYONE IS NICE, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN COOL I know. Honestly, I do. Except for minor incident that I recall, PyCon US has largely been free of issues such as this. Every meetup, conference, etc I have been to has been filled with nice, kind people and largely jerk-free. This is a testament to the community as a whole. So, you ask: if we're all chill cool people, and nothing bad has happened, why have one? Because it won't always be that way. If we continue to expand and grow (and we will), and if we continue to grow even more diverse - in sex, race, creed and geography - the chances of "an incident" will grow. In fact, I know incidents have happened and been dealt with. So no, the unspoken rule of "don't be a jerk" doesn't scale very well. And that's what we're talking about - a scalability problem. The social norms and rules of a group of five people, or one hundred people may float. What about 200? 500? 800? How about 2300 people (the attendance of PyCon 2012)? No. "Don't be a Jerk" may be our unspoken, unwritten community motto; but its not enough for those on the outside looking in. Those outside of these circles want clear lines on behavioral expectations. They want to know that not only are there unwritten rules about not being a jerk - they want to know what will happen if a Jerk Occurs. This sets their expectations, and it gives them comfort. It makes them feel more welcome, more safe. Especially when they're part of a group who has been put under constant objectification and harassment for decades in our industry.
- chernevik 14y ago
  There is no problem but people are not to be trusted so we need a Rule. What could go wrong?
- mrtron 14y ago
  I completely understand the spot you are in and can see how you are rationalizing it. The policy approach just doesn't fit for me (nor does it need to). I only commented because I do care about the Python community and hope to attend this event. When I read the article I can't help substituting "label on cup" and reading incident as a coffee burn.] Seeing "we now have an anti-harassment policy!" followed up by "and women are specifically encouraged to attend and apply." makes me cringe. It doesn't feel like the way to encourage my wife (engineer) or any of the numerous women I have developed software with that the conference is an awesome event.

pretoriusB 14y ago

Another strike against free speech for the PC police.

jnoller 14y ago
And how is offering guidelines for inappropriate behavior including explicit guidelines for conflict resolution trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event? I guess harassment falls under free speech. My bad dog.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >trampling on your rights to free speech at a private event? Speech should be free in public AND in private events. Else you get societies giving lip service to the idea of "free speech" in public, and then destroying the public spaces of discourse. (How about Google censoring your email or blog? It's their private infrastructure after all). >I guess harassment falls under free speech. No, it's just that white Americans have no idea what harassment means. Some guy showing a slide with a bikini model at a Ruby conference was enough to cause a "moral outrage" a couple of years ago. (And, no, it's not about the relevance of the slide, which meant as a joke: if he had shown something equally non relavant, like a Star Wars joke or a LoTR joke, everybody would have been fine with it).
Sanddancer 14y ago
You have every right to speak like a knuckle-dragging troglodyte. The PyCon folks also have every right to say for you to do it somewhere other than their private convention space.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  Well, if George Carlin was a python developer, I for one, would have loved to see him speak. And I have no problem with how Linus talks, without concern for self-censorship. Funny how we owe a large of the success of open source (and most of Linux) to a "knuckle-dragging troglodyte"...