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Something similar happened to me when I left Microsoft for Apple (I moved from the Visual Studio team to the Xcode team). MS spent six months trying to prove I'

Something similar happened to me when I left Microsoft for Apple (I moved from the Visual Studio team to the Xcode team). MS spent six months trying to prove I'd taken "industry secrets" with me. I hadn't. The entire thing felt like a personal attack and was extremely stressful. It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen.

marklar423 2mo ago
Did Apple help defend you against those claims during the six months?
- LatencyKills 2mo ago
  They did. That said, I don’t know how much “defending” they had to do given that I was never even told what, exactly, I was supposed to have stolen. But, like I said, it was both surprising and anxiety inducing.
bayindirh 2mo ago
> It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen. I believe some articles mentioned about employees bragging to their former colleagues about accessing documents. Also I believe they lied to Apple about being employed elsewhere so they can continue using their access and hardware, etc. If these are correct, the whole OpenAI playbook is very dirty, and I won't pity them a bit.
- compiler-guy 2mo ago
  Apple also has server logs that track these former employees downloading confidential docs. It doesn't prove that they shared them over to OpenAI, but Apple has pretty solid proof that the former employees saved them without authorization.
ajju 2mo ago
This seems like an important post. It looks like these letters are occasionally used to as a tactic, and i can see how such a tactic can really scare employees in a country where legal bills can climb really fast.
- joshstrange 2mo ago
  > in a country where legal bills can climb really fast Honest question: Are there countries where this is not the case? I'd be interested to read more about how that manage that. If it's some sort of "protecting the little guy"-type thing or a general suppression of legal costs. Or maybe I'm reading too much into your comment.
  - shimman 2mo ago
    Yes, the US is actually unique in this position. It even has it's own name the "American Rule." In every other country, the loser pays the winner's legal fees.
    - im3w1l 2mo ago
      Doesn't that mean that if you have a slam dunk case you can get a super expensive lawyer just to run up costs as much as possible? Hell, could you ask your friend to be your legal representative and have him charge you a gorillion dollar in legal fees? Then when you win you split the loot?
      - tfourb 2mo ago
        Civilized countries regulate the rates that lawyers can charge for standard work. Also lawyers get only reimbursed for reasonable costs by the loser. Still expensive, but not absurdly so.
      - samatman 2mo ago
        It does, and it absolutely has a chilling effect in countries which don't do things this way. Sue someone who can spend millions of pounds (for the sake of argument) on defence? Better be certain you can win... against someone who can spend millions of pounds, and probably went to the same public school as the judge. In America, legal fees can be awarded as additional damages. We should do it more than we do. But given those two options? I'm on Team American Rule, 100%
nxobject 2mo ago
> It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen. Honestly, the proof is the least surprising part -- Apple's been paranoid about leaks for decades, even when the stakes have been lower.
trashface 2mo ago
I would think that is almost routine when big companies trade ICs at above a certain level. They pay for armies of lawyers which is a waste if not used. So its not about you, its about them throwing rocks at each other. Though in this case, OpenAI may have leveled up the game a bit too much.

marklar423 2mo ago

Did Apple help defend you against those claims during the six months?

LatencyKills 2mo ago
They did. That said, I don’t know how much “defending” they had to do given that I was never even told what, exactly, I was supposed to have stolen. But, like I said, it was both surprising and anxiety inducing.

bayindirh 2mo ago

> It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen. I believe some articles mentioned about employees bragging to their former colleagues about accessing documents. Also I believe they lied to Apple about being employed elsewhere so they can continue using their access and hardware, etc. If these are correct, the whole OpenAI playbook is very dirty, and I won't pity them a bit.

compiler-guy 2mo ago
Apple also has server logs that track these former employees downloading confidential docs. It doesn't prove that they shared them over to OpenAI, but Apple has pretty solid proof that the former employees saved them without authorization.

ajju 2mo ago

This seems like an important post. It looks like these letters are occasionally used to as a tactic, and i can see how such a tactic can really scare employees in a country where legal bills can climb really fast.

joshstrange 2mo ago
> in a country where legal bills can climb really fast Honest question: Are there countries where this is not the case? I'd be interested to read more about how that manage that. If it's some sort of "protecting the little guy"-type thing or a general suppression of legal costs. Or maybe I'm reading too much into your comment.
- shimman 2mo ago
  Yes, the US is actually unique in this position. It even has it's own name the "American Rule." In every other country, the loser pays the winner's legal fees.
  - im3w1l 2mo ago
    Doesn't that mean that if you have a slam dunk case you can get a super expensive lawyer just to run up costs as much as possible? Hell, could you ask your friend to be your legal representative and have him charge you a gorillion dollar in legal fees? Then when you win you split the loot?
    - tfourb 2mo ago
      Civilized countries regulate the rates that lawyers can charge for standard work. Also lawyers get only reimbursed for reasonable costs by the loser. Still expensive, but not absurdly so.
    - samatman 2mo ago
      It does, and it absolutely has a chilling effect in countries which don't do things this way. Sue someone who can spend millions of pounds (for the sake of argument) on defence? Better be certain you can win... against someone who can spend millions of pounds, and probably went to the same public school as the judge. In America, legal fees can be awarded as additional damages. We should do it more than we do. But given those two options? I'm on Team American Rule, 100%

nxobject 2mo ago

> It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen. Honestly, the proof is the least surprising part -- Apple's been paranoid about leaks for decades, even when the stakes have been lower.

trashface 2mo ago

I would think that is almost routine when big companies trade ICs at above a certain level. They pay for armies of lawyers which is a waste if not used. So its not about you, its about them throwing rocks at each other. Though in this case, OpenAI may have leveled up the game a bit too much.