3 ms·

The film won't mark generations like Interstellar but is far from being silly. This is a deliberate interpretation of the Odyssey with a very interresting appr

The film won't mark generations like Interstellar but is far from being silly. This is a deliberate interpretation of the Odyssey with a very interresting approach IMO: can a man who destroys a whole civilization can come back home as a hero ? The main theme is about shame and how to deal with it. The film is really pretty good and far above any avg blockbuster.

epolanski 2mo ago
And as the economist points out this is really an interpretation of our times because in no part of the Odyssey (which I've read) there is such an emphasis, it's all about coming home.
- nephihaha 2mo ago
  That's my interpretation. He's trying to get back to Penelope, and has bizarre adventures on the way.
  - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
    Wait, he cares about Penelope? I thought he just wanted to get back to his kingdom.
    - krapp 2mo ago
      I liked Angela Collier's video essay about the Odyssey[0] (ostensibly about casting a Muppet version but more generally about the issues involved with adaptations in general), where she points out that modern audiences want the Odyssey to be a romance but that just isn't how ancient Greek culture worked. Odysseus and Penelope are nobles, their relationship isn't based on romance or love, it's transactional, it's about the business of entitlement and Penelope is the currency. Of course this is an issue with adapting all ancient myths - dealing with the cultural dissonance. Odysseus, our hero, on returning home, has his female slaves killed because they were defiled by his suitors, when their bodies were his by right. This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. A modern retelling could explore that dissonance a bit, with the cruel caprice of both gods and kings, and be interesting, but not popular. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8
      - watwut 2mo ago
        > This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. Treating it is a virtue is very much translation dependent aspect. Some translations treats them as guilty sluts, but not all. It is a thing he does, but not necessary "virtuous" thing. Also, Penelope is actively defending her faith to him. She did not had to, she could marry a suitor and save herself a trouble. Historical arranged marriage are not romances, but people grow to have relationships to each other. People do care, just like we care about cousins, siblings or other unchoosen groups. It can grow to hate and abuse too, but those are not present in Odyssey.
- dv_dt 2mo ago
  That's a really odd thing to point out, as even the earliest written records of the Odyssey are later interpretations of what was a story passed in oral tradition. And on top that, what most of us have read, have further passed through one ore more translations. Each of the transcriptions add interpretation, especially ones that move from ancient languages to modern. Maybe it's the modern era with brands and so many off-the-shelf prepackaged products that there is an invisibly applied assumption that there is only one true form of a product or piece of literature. That's coming from a consumerist, marketed, branded culture. Looking with a longer perspective, most archetypal stories and myths are interesting precisely with interpretation of their time making them relevant and connectable again in the time of their retelling.
  - bigbadfeline 2mo ago
    > That's a really odd thing to point out, as even the earliest written records of the Odyssey are later interpretations of what was a story passed in oral tradition. It's not at all odd to point out that a movie is at odds with the common interpretation. That interpretation and the tradition that made it common should not be tainted by incompatible takes, they should be respected in order to avoid confusion and prevent the use of well known sources as promotional vehicles for war-mongering pseudo-art. If the makers of the modern movie wanted to promote a different idea, they should've named it differently without confusing the public that the original had anything to do with their fantasies.
- UncleMeat 2mo ago
  A great thing about literature is that it can be expressed in different contexts. A piece of art being about one thing at one time does not mean that we cannot use that art to explore a different thing at a different time.
nephihaha 2mo ago
In those days, people did not have many qualms about such things. The Romans destroyed Carthage long after this was written, and expressed little regret over having done so.
- snickerbockers 2mo ago
  Ancient literature is so fucking wild because the value systems were unlike anything that exists today. My favorite example is in the old testament when God sends a couple angels to Lot and a large mob of sodomites (people from the city of sodom, although they probably satisfy both definitions of the word) converge upon him and demand to rape the angels. Lot immediately attempts to negotiate by offering to let the mob to rape his own daughters in lieu of the angels. The mob denies this generous offer so the angels drive them away under their own power, thus calling into question why Lot felt the need to offer his daughter's unto a large mob of literal sodomites. The angels tell him to leave because God is planning to destroy the entire city, and somehow Lot is actually being spared since he is somehow the only righteous man in Sodom. He is warned not to look back at the city as he departs, but his wife foolishly disobey this instruction and is immediately transformed into a pillar of salt as one would expect. Then later they're out in the wilderness where there are no men and the two daughters are getting hot and bothered so they drug the recently-widowed Lot and rape him, becoming impregnatedin the process. In all fairness I think the implication behind that last plot development was a sort of abramhic version of karma since Lot is an extremely unsympathetic character despite somehow also being righteous enough to merit being spared the fires of sodom. However given what I know about how incest usually works in the modern world i can't help but wonder if (assuming this is at least partially based on true events) we're actually just getting Lot's side of the story after he inexplicably emerges from the wilderness with two grandchildren and no other sources of paternity. Anyways the bronze age is one helluva drug.
  - graemep 2mo ago
    There are bits of this that are at odds with current value systems, but also bits that accord with them. Offering them his own daughters as victims definitely does appal anyone today, and I guess comes from a strong culture of obligation to guests - before your self or your family. Lot did not know they were angels so did not know the alternative existed. On the other hand they agree with us that gang rape is very wrong. The pillar of salt thing and the destruction of the city are weird. On the other hand there are many modern examples of people wanting to destroy a place or a people they believe to be wicked. The incest is presented as something they did, not as morally right. I like your interpretation of getting Lot's side of the story, but not too literally as this was an oral tradition that was only written down much later. There are many wildly different value systems in the world today. None that say gang rape is fine, but many will blame the victims.
caidan 2mo ago
I don’t know, Interstellar is one of the silliest movies I’ve ever seen…
- AngryData 2mo ago
  Yeah I really don't get the praise for it. I doubt ill ever have the desire to watch it again.
warumdarum 2mo ago
Some of us go to the cinema for escapism. Notsome bdsm guilt cult thing. But then maybe its me and fetish fims are mainstream now.
otekengineering 2mo ago
Ender's Game did a pretty good job of answering that question

epolanski 2mo ago

And as the economist points out this is really an interpretation of our times because in no part of the Odyssey (which I've read) there is such an emphasis, it's all about coming home.

nephihaha 2mo ago
That's my interpretation. He's trying to get back to Penelope, and has bizarre adventures on the way.
- amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
  Wait, he cares about Penelope? I thought he just wanted to get back to his kingdom.
  - krapp 2mo ago
    I liked Angela Collier's video essay about the Odyssey[0] (ostensibly about casting a Muppet version but more generally about the issues involved with adaptations in general), where she points out that modern audiences want the Odyssey to be a romance but that just isn't how ancient Greek culture worked. Odysseus and Penelope are nobles, their relationship isn't based on romance or love, it's transactional, it's about the business of entitlement and Penelope is the currency. Of course this is an issue with adapting all ancient myths - dealing with the cultural dissonance. Odysseus, our hero, on returning home, has his female slaves killed because they were defiled by his suitors, when their bodies were his by right. This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. A modern retelling could explore that dissonance a bit, with the cruel caprice of both gods and kings, and be interesting, but not popular. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8
    - watwut 2mo ago
      > This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. Treating it is a virtue is very much translation dependent aspect. Some translations treats them as guilty sluts, but not all. It is a thing he does, but not necessary "virtuous" thing. Also, Penelope is actively defending her faith to him. She did not had to, she could marry a suitor and save herself a trouble. Historical arranged marriage are not romances, but people grow to have relationships to each other. People do care, just like we care about cousins, siblings or other unchoosen groups. It can grow to hate and abuse too, but those are not present in Odyssey.
dv_dt 2mo ago
That's a really odd thing to point out, as even the earliest written records of the Odyssey are later interpretations of what was a story passed in oral tradition. And on top that, what most of us have read, have further passed through one ore more translations. Each of the transcriptions add interpretation, especially ones that move from ancient languages to modern. Maybe it's the modern era with brands and so many off-the-shelf prepackaged products that there is an invisibly applied assumption that there is only one true form of a product or piece of literature. That's coming from a consumerist, marketed, branded culture. Looking with a longer perspective, most archetypal stories and myths are interesting precisely with interpretation of their time making them relevant and connectable again in the time of their retelling.
- bigbadfeline 2mo ago
  > That's a really odd thing to point out, as even the earliest written records of the Odyssey are later interpretations of what was a story passed in oral tradition. It's not at all odd to point out that a movie is at odds with the common interpretation. That interpretation and the tradition that made it common should not be tainted by incompatible takes, they should be respected in order to avoid confusion and prevent the use of well known sources as promotional vehicles for war-mongering pseudo-art. If the makers of the modern movie wanted to promote a different idea, they should've named it differently without confusing the public that the original had anything to do with their fantasies.
UncleMeat 2mo ago
A great thing about literature is that it can be expressed in different contexts. A piece of art being about one thing at one time does not mean that we cannot use that art to explore a different thing at a different time.

nephihaha 2mo ago

In those days, people did not have many qualms about such things. The Romans destroyed Carthage long after this was written, and expressed little regret over having done so.

snickerbockers 2mo ago
Ancient literature is so fucking wild because the value systems were unlike anything that exists today. My favorite example is in the old testament when God sends a couple angels to Lot and a large mob of sodomites (people from the city of sodom, although they probably satisfy both definitions of the word) converge upon him and demand to rape the angels. Lot immediately attempts to negotiate by offering to let the mob to rape his own daughters in lieu of the angels. The mob denies this generous offer so the angels drive them away under their own power, thus calling into question why Lot felt the need to offer his daughter's unto a large mob of literal sodomites. The angels tell him to leave because God is planning to destroy the entire city, and somehow Lot is actually being spared since he is somehow the only righteous man in Sodom. He is warned not to look back at the city as he departs, but his wife foolishly disobey this instruction and is immediately transformed into a pillar of salt as one would expect. Then later they're out in the wilderness where there are no men and the two daughters are getting hot and bothered so they drug the recently-widowed Lot and rape him, becoming impregnatedin the process. In all fairness I think the implication behind that last plot development was a sort of abramhic version of karma since Lot is an extremely unsympathetic character despite somehow also being righteous enough to merit being spared the fires of sodom. However given what I know about how incest usually works in the modern world i can't help but wonder if (assuming this is at least partially based on true events) we're actually just getting Lot's side of the story after he inexplicably emerges from the wilderness with two grandchildren and no other sources of paternity. Anyways the bronze age is one helluva drug.
- graemep 2mo ago
  There are bits of this that are at odds with current value systems, but also bits that accord with them. Offering them his own daughters as victims definitely does appal anyone today, and I guess comes from a strong culture of obligation to guests - before your self or your family. Lot did not know they were angels so did not know the alternative existed. On the other hand they agree with us that gang rape is very wrong. The pillar of salt thing and the destruction of the city are weird. On the other hand there are many modern examples of people wanting to destroy a place or a people they believe to be wicked. The incest is presented as something they did, not as morally right. I like your interpretation of getting Lot's side of the story, but not too literally as this was an oral tradition that was only written down much later. There are many wildly different value systems in the world today. None that say gang rape is fine, but many will blame the victims.

caidan 2mo ago

I don’t know, Interstellar is one of the silliest movies I’ve ever seen…

AngryData 2mo ago
Yeah I really don't get the praise for it. I doubt ill ever have the desire to watch it again.

warumdarum 2mo ago

Some of us go to the cinema for escapism. Notsome bdsm guilt cult thing. But then maybe its me and fetish fims are mainstream now.

otekengineering 2mo ago

Ender's Game did a pretty good job of answering that question